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T_MacWood

Re:Early North American golf course architecture
« Reply #100 on: November 15, 2005, 12:10:02 PM »
Dismiss Hadji at your own peril.

If I'm not mistaken Dr. Quest was neighbor of Max Behr's around Far Hills. Anyway they knew one another, he introduced a religion based upon numbers to Behr. It is thought Hadji introduced this religion to the good doctor.

Praise to Hadji..
4

Mike_Cirba

Re:Early North American golf course architecture
« Reply #101 on: November 15, 2005, 12:46:45 PM »
Yes, Tom...MacWood's correct...Hadji is not someone to trifle with or otherwise seek to minimize.

Since it appears we've opened the door on a whole new world of architectural lineage for you, perhaps the following I found on the Internet will be helpful in your further studies of the creations of Hadji and his associates...

Dr. Benton Quest--a SCIENTIST (not specializing in any particular kind of science, just whatever the episode was about that week) who globetrots, solving mysteries for the U.S. intelligence community.

Johnny Quest--his intelligent, irrepressible son who is drawn into the adventures by his father's globetrotting.

Roger "Race" Bannon--a government agent assigned to protect Johnny to keep him from being kidnapped and used to blackmail his father.

Hadji--Johnny's best friend, an orphaned boy from India, who mysteriously happens to be a boy prodigy in golf course architecture, later acclaimed after death for his contributions to the penal school of design, and was largely hailed as its founder
.
Bandit--Johnny's irrepressible, comic-relief dog.


Philip Spogard

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Early North American golf course architecture
« Reply #102 on: November 15, 2005, 01:22:22 PM »
TEPaul,

I am glad you looked back at my first post which started this entire discussion. By "early" NA gca I actually referred to the period upto around 1930.

I would still like to ask everyone the same question: who in any of you guys' opinion had the biggest impact on NA gca?

In my opinion MacKenzie is a major influence on how the world looks at NA gca. I would still say CB Mac though - but that is mostly because of NGLA and the way it revolutionized NA gca.

TEPaul

Re:Early North American golf course architecture
« Reply #103 on: November 16, 2005, 10:08:22 AM »
Philip:

Although this subject has been discussed on here at other times and in slightly different ways it nevertheless is a wonderful question and probably a fundamental one too.

I tend to agree with you----eg Mackenzie!

But why? My particular reason to pick Mackenzie as perhaps the greatest (best) influence on North American architecture pre 1930s is because of his tremendous advances in the creation of the look of real “naturalism” in golf architecture. And furthermore I think his real advancement in the look of “naturalism” in golf architecture was clearly the direct result of his wholly unique observations from the Boer War on the camouflaging of the military trenches of the Boers and how he applied that basic principle to golf course architecture.

That “camouflaging” principle he got from the Boers and applied to golf course architecture so well was basically the importance of seamlessly “tying in” what was natural land formation with what was made by the architect in such a way that one could hardly tell where one stopped and the other started. Add to that the otherworldly beauty of some of his created and used formations, his bunkering, particularly West Coast bunkering (Cypress, Pasatiempo et al), even if it was fairly “stylized” (they say Patty Cole and the Irish crew of the American Construction Co. he used in California got into copying the shapes of passing clouds and such in their bunker formations).

I think there’s another major, and maybe greatest and best influence on this era, even if it may’ve been cut short somewhat by the depression. Bob Crosby may be the best to discuss this with because he seems to be looking closely at that subject right now. And that is what appears to be a sort of loose philosophical collaboration that may’ve been going on amongst a few architects at that time in the late 1920s. I think, as I belief Bob does, that a loose group was trying to collaboratively push the envelop in not just the look of “naturalism” but also to push the envelop of “naturalism” in various ways strategically. So far we think this loose group, even if they may’ve been competitive at times, included Mackenzie/Jones, Hunter, Thomas/Bell, Max Behr and perhaps a few others.

It appears they were looking for ways to take the art form to a new and better “naturalistic” level, and they were philosophizing and experimenting with that before the depression created the app 15-20 year “hiatus” and after that many of them were dead and gone.

My thought, at this point, is could there be another level from what they were actually doing with the likes of Cypress in look and ANGC is strategic concept? Did it occur to them that perhaps they'd taken it at that time as far as it could ever go? And if not, to what and to where were they thinking of taking it next?

Looking back on those courses of that era before the depression my personal opinion is Mackenzie took it to the greatest heights in these ways mentioned but Tillinghast was surely not far behind him.

It's probably not that much of a coincidence that both Mackenzie and Tillinghast were both seemingly complex and sometimes problematic personalities but with extraordinary imaginations, sometimes in some pretty odd-ball ways. For those who know their histories it seems the same could be said about Thomas, Hunter and certainly Max Behr. Not a single one of them were remotely what anyone would describe as "pedestrian" in their architectural thinking or even otherwise in their own personal lives.

People like those probably have some serious "misses" of one kind or another just because they do push the envelope artistically and otherwise more than most but it's probably why they hit the greatest heights too.

And that's why I pick them, particularly Mackenzie, as the greatest influence on that era.



ForkaB

Re:Early North American golf course architecture
« Reply #104 on: November 16, 2005, 11:03:19 AM »
Philip

Getting back to your original question, what do you mean by "impact?"  Particularly:

--immediate or longer term?
--on whom, architects or critics?
--intensive or extensive?

If you mean an immediate, intensive impact on critics, then one has to go for first Macdonald and then Mackenzie.  On the other hand, if you mean long term, extensive impact on architects, then it has to be Ross.  Which of course leads us back to Old Tom Morris....... ;)

T_MacWood

Re:Early North American golf course architecture
« Reply #105 on: November 16, 2005, 11:38:57 AM »
"On the other hand, if you mean long term, extensive impact on architects, then it has to be Ross.  Which of course leads us back to Old Tom Morris......."

....and what not to do.

It is interesting to compare Ross's work before and after he traveled to the UK in 1910 to study modern golf architecture. Night and day.

Philip Spogard

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Early North American golf course architecture
« Reply #106 on: November 16, 2005, 12:01:48 PM »
Rich,

I wrote the question somewhat open so lots of opinions would be given.

Why Ross? Because of the amount of work? I agree he made some good courses but I would not name the biggest impact. Definitely among the great though.

TEPaul,

That is a very interesting theory/story about the architects joining up to rise the bar for future projects. Regardless of what was "planned" one can not help questioning himself what would have been without the Depression.

TEPaul

Re:Early North American golf course architecture
« Reply #107 on: November 16, 2005, 12:41:45 PM »
"TEPaul,
That is a very interesting theory/story about the architects joining up to rise the bar for future projects. Regardless of what was "planned" one can not help questioning himself what would have been without the Depression."

Philip:

What direction golf architecture would've taken (in type and style) if there had been no depression (and WW2) may be the biggest question and enigma of all about the 20th century evolution of golf architecture, certainly in America.

If the depression and WW2 had never happened and there never was that sort of disconnect in time of perhaps 15-20 years we sometimes refer to on here as "the hiatus" (when the continuity in architecture up to that time sort of snapped) would golf architecture have evolved the way it did anyway or would it have evolved somewhat different or perhaps even vastly different from the way it did for one reason or another? That's the largest question of all to most of us who study this stuff. We will never know the answer obviously.

All we know is that there was that "hiatus" and we think we know what that meant and why things evolved differently in the second half of the century.

But perhaps the biggest irony of all is it really does seem like a serious move is afoot today and for the last ten or so years amongst a pretty dedicated group to very much pick up the continuity of much of that superlative architecture of the Golden Age and take it to some new or other level.

The fact that what happened in the app. 60 years that intervened is pretty different in some fairly fundamental ways makes the entire evolution of golf architecture in the last century all the more odd and interesing.

But maybe we're all being too dramatic about it and maybe it's no different from so many other things in life which is that they all tend to go in rather lengthy cycles of distinct fads of type, style and taste that can be so diverse from what preceded them and what tends to follow them.


« Last Edit: November 16, 2005, 12:59:44 PM by TEPaul »

ForkaB

Re:Early North American golf course architecture
« Reply #108 on: November 16, 2005, 12:54:53 PM »
Rich,

I wrote the question somewhat open so lots of opinions would be given.

Why Ross? Because of the amount of work? I agree he made some good courses but I would not name the biggest impact. Definitely among the great though.


Philip

Volume and quality

The Mac's had the latter but not the former.  To have impact, you need mass as well as velocity (or something like that.... ;)).  Ross had both, and when he did or did not re-vist the UK is irrelevant to this question, of course.

TEPaul

Re:Early North American golf course architecture
« Reply #109 on: November 16, 2005, 01:15:34 PM »
"The Mac's had the latter but not the former.  To have impact, you need mass as well as velocity (or something like that.... ).  Ross had both, and when he did or did not re-vist the UK is irrelevant to this question, of course."

Richard, you never cease to amaze me. I thought I'd gotten to know golf architecture pretty well by this point but apparently not. Until today I did not know a golf course and its over-all mass could fly or move swiftly across the surface of the earth and make a real impact on something else to get attention---one learns new and wonderful things every day.

It probably stands to reason, then, that Sand Hills G.C., the golf course itself being on perhaps 500 or more acres would be very heavy and have some of the world's greatest mass and therefore at a certain velocity should make one of the biggest impacts of any course anywhere. No wonder it jumped so quickly to the second ranked course in the United States.

I've always felt PVGC should be ranked at or near #1 in the world but until today I didn't realize it obviously weighs more and can move faster than any course on earth.

Thank you.
« Last Edit: November 16, 2005, 01:16:00 PM by TEPaul »

T_MacWood

Re:Early North American golf course architecture
« Reply #110 on: November 16, 2005, 01:17:35 PM »
....and when he did or did not re-vist the UK is irrelevant to this question, of course.

Rich
Agreed.  :D

It is only relevant when someone puts forth the idiotic notion that Old Tom was the primary influence (now apparently by way of Ross) on American golf architecture.
« Last Edit: November 16, 2005, 05:16:03 PM by Tom MacWood »

TEPaul

Re:Early North American golf course architecture
« Reply #111 on: November 16, 2005, 01:53:44 PM »
"It is only relevant when someone puts forth the idiotic notion that Old Tom was the primary influence (now apparently by way of Ross) on American golf architecture."

Tom MacWood:

Obviously you're not a big believer in the validity of the parable of the nail that fell out of the shoe of the King's horse, or for that matter, the incredible influence of what that nail falling out of the shoe of the King's Horse can have.  ;)

Look at it this way---If Sir Hugh Playfair had not had that bad hair day on November 11, 1845 and as a consequence become pissed and dictatorial thereby demanding the cleaning up and widening of TOC among other projects he demanded at St Andrews at that time and for the same reason (his bad hair day) we may not have ever had something called golf course architecture. So it's very possible and perhaps likely that the greatest influence on or impact on North American golf course architecture was Sir Hugh's bad hair day.

You call yourself an expert researcher and that never occured to you? Shame on you. Obviously you really do need to learn how to deduce history's influences more intelligently, as I've suspected all along.
« Last Edit: November 16, 2005, 02:03:29 PM by TEPaul »

ForkaB

Re:Early North American golf course architecture
« Reply #112 on: November 16, 2005, 01:56:45 PM »
Tom MacW

You left out the smiley face :'(.  Maybe you should just go back and edit that one sentence post of yours again. :)

T_MacWood

Re:Early North American golf course architecture
« Reply #113 on: November 16, 2005, 05:17:45 PM »
TE
Something fell out the of horse alright, but it wasn't a nail and Rich is full of it.  :)