? about angles and options/strategies

[David Panzarasa]

 I have been on here for a while now, I just dont post much. I am very interested in the term and theory of angles of attack, and options/strategies. Especially when it comes to trees and constant debate over them.  
 When it comes to the different angles of a certain whole, how many can there possibly be? I read a lot about how people like the different options and strategies of this hole or that hole and I dont see it? I would venture a par three only has the tee shot that people are looking at the different angles and strategies for the whole. But when we get to par 4's and 5's this is where I am confused. People like to see different angles, options, strategies for the tee shot then the next shot and so on, but isnt there only really one strategy for each hole in reality? This is where my question and confusion lies, how do trees get in the way or ruin a hole and the different option, stratgies and actual angles of attack? I then look at courses with deep pot bunkers in the fairway (links courses) and see no difference between them and a tree that would cause a terrible or no approach shot. what is the difference when with both of these are trouble and make going for the green impossible?
 For instance, I would venture the majority of people here have played TPC sawgrass and know the holes pretty well. what holes there would you change, get rid of trees, or leave be because of the great options and different angles the hole has. And please let me know if you can by posting a picture of any hole out there and how different angles come into play, and options come into play.....this post is for me to learn and understand, not trying to argue over trees and things like that.
 Just trying to learn and understand what people see in a certain hole that they like, dont like, and where they see different options and angles.
 (update) please see my post lower for a more CLEAR question. this was confusing and I am sorry.
 

[A_Clay_Man]

but isnt there only really one strategy for each hole in reality?

Could you please elaborate on this?

Do you mean high, long and straight?

[THuckaby2]

Adam - I'm guessing he means only one BEST strategy on each hole.  Of course the greater the golf hole, the less clear that is.

I'd also say though that the more skilled you are at this game, the less things like angles of attack matter.

TH

[Brian Noser]

I would think there is not always one best angle of play. For one particular shot maybe, but not for the entire hole one way.  The hole that comes to mind is #3 at Rustic Canyon.

You can go left, right or straight from the tee. you go left your tee shot becomes more difficult but the reward for going that way is the green is open. If you go right the tee ball is much eaiser but the green runs away and you have a bumnker to conted with. and the 3rd and final is straight this requires a carry of roughly 220-230. so on this particular hole there are 3 options with different results on eash shot. I do not know if this is what you are talking about but if this hole was tree lined it may take out some of these options .

[Mike Vegis @ Kiawah]

I would have to disagree about one best stratigy as conditions often differ from day to day.  On the Ocean Course, we often have consecutive days where the wind blows 180 degrees different.  One day calls for a high, floater to stop on the green, the next, a shot that cuts through the wind.  Greens here are up to 49 yards deep allowing for different approach shots.  Attack strategies change with conditions.

[THuckaby2]

Gents:

Don't get too carried away with this.  Again, just guessing what David means, but I do think he refers to one shot, at one point in time, in conditions present at the time.   Hard not to say there's one best strategy when all factors are weighed.  Of course on great holes like #3 Rustic, figuring such out is quite a skill.  Executing it is even more so.

And Brian makes a great point - on holes like this where the one best strategy is difficult to determine, introducing trees would block out so many options as to make the one best strategy obvious, it not "alone".  Some golfers - those for whom execution is what it's all about - would like that.  Those with more of a soul find it boring.

TH

[Mark_Fine]

David,
Read my post on the tree thread about what we did on #11 at Cherry Hills.
Mark

[David Panzarasa]

I am not even sure what I mean lol,
 Basically does a great hole have more than one angle or strategy? Lets say I am watching Pebble Beach on TV, and as we see all the golfers are going to same route to the hole...if memory serves me correct, on the 18th most people are hitting the left side of the fairway, thus leaving them with the best angle of attack since the green is open, and makes the hole shorter as well. The only other strategy I see on this hole is the safety (usually when one is not a long or accurate driver) they aim for the middle to right of the fairway. So, besides the whole being amazingly beautiful what is so great about this whole? there are no real options here. I only use this hole because we ALL know what it is by heart. Looking at a lot of these holes on these great courses, anyone can tell me that this whole you can hit left or right or long or short off the tee...but in reality there is an ideal and 1 right strategic way to play most holes. (not most of the short par 4's and shorter par 5's)
 I guess I am trying to find out what makes a hole great and a course great....and most of us would agree on what courses are great. It seems to me after reading posts on here for over a year now that strategy and options play a MASSIVE part in all the great courses and holes. YET, I personally cant see holes where there are really many options or more importantly strategies. I know I am missing something. The only holes where I personally (once again personally) see strategies come into play are the short par 4's and 5's and holes that have trees in play or sand in play off the tee. But, these holes seem to be the ones that are bashed on here by many (not all). This is what I am trying to find out. My original thread on this was terrible and I am sorry, just trying to put all my thoughts together which came out better here. Thanks

[Brian Noser]

like Tom said the better skilled you are the less it becomes nessasary for angles and options. but in your example you say you hit it left it opens up the green. that may be the preferd shot if you have that shot in your bag. not every one feels comfortable aim at the ocean and having the confidence to hit it there. thus you have the option of bailing out to the right and facing a different angle of approch. Thus you have options.

Every player will have different optins based on skill level if the hole is straight tree lined with bunkers left front and right front of the green you have no choice how to play the hole. thus to me a boring hole. great courses I belive will give you the option you just have to figure them out.


I do not know if that helps or not just trying to see if you see it that way.

[A_Clay_Man]

 Basically does a great hole have more than one angle or strategy?

Basically, A poor course is one where "the one option hole" is much too evident, and usually repetitive.

A great course has the situation that Mike @ Kawah recognized. Every changing mysteriously counter intuitivekind of thing.

[ed_getka]

David,
  I think, as someone pointed out, that at any given moment, for your game there will be one best way to play a shot or hole, assuming you execute exactly how you plan.However, if you don't pull off your shot are you dead, or do you have an option. For instance I am thinking of the #2 hole at Barona Creek for instance. It is essentially a straightaway par 4 off the tee. The best line off the tee is down the left side of the fairway since the green sits on a diagonal to you going back from left to right. The green is well guarded on the right by bunkering. To get to the left side of the fairway you have to carry a fwy bunker that cuts in from the left side, not a huge carry but enough to get you thinking. Assuming you don't pull off left fairway, and end up bailing out to the right because you are scared off by the bunker carry. Now you have a bad angle into the green because you have to come in over the bunkering to go right at the pin (if its center or back) to what is effectively a shallow green on a course that normally plays firm and fast. However, the brilliance of this hole and course is that there are sideboards within this green and surrounds, that will allow you to play your shot in to the left, avoid the bunkering and let the slopes/contour bring your ball around to the hole. I hope this makes some sense. It does to me, but I know what the hole looks like.

[Jason Topp]

David -

Here is a hole that I think has some wonderful angles that force decisions on the player:




The hole is 350 yards and plays downhill pretty significantly.  The important obstacles on the hole are out of bounds on the right (left in the picture); a fairway bunker that is on the right side of the fairway (the rough that intrudes into the fairway is behind the bunker) and the grass hollow on the left side of the green.

The grass hollow contains thick grass very severe slopes, with the green sloping away. It is the one spot around the green where you are dead.  If you approach the green from the left side of the fairway, you have almost no margin for error if the pin is back.  The picture does not show fully the advantage of approaching from the right, but it does exist and might partially result from slopes on the green.

The options off the tee are:

1.  Hit it behind the bunker leaving a 130- 150 yard shot that is blind because the bunker is on a ridge.  You sacrifice visibility for an easy tee shot and the best angle into the green;

2.  Hit it left off the tee and either hit your second perfectly to get to a back pin or play conservatively to the center; or

3.  Carry the bunker off the tee and catch the downslope.  As long as it is not into the wind, it is possible to get very close to the green because the ground is firm and there is a downslope behind the bunker.  This option brings the OB into play if you leave it right.

This hole would not be very good if

1.  The bunker was in a spot where it is not possible to carry it over, removing that temptation;

2.  The fairway and green were not firm, greatly reducing the disadvantage of approaching from the left side and negating the additional roll one gets by catching a downslope off the tee.

3.  If there was no wind, this course is very exposed.

[William King]

Nice example Jason! I think I'll give it a try:

This link shows #12 @ my home course from the tee (par 4 400 blues; 420 tips):
http://tinyurl.com/duuze

I'm not sure if it is obvious from this photo, but the line of play that screams at you from the box is the right side. It is the shortest distance to the green but there is not much room, although more than appears in the pic, still were talking 20-30 yds.
A miss right and you best end up in the sand otherwise everything runs into the trees and it's jail. There is a lot more room left, however, you obviously have to settle for a 180+ approach shot or if you aim left and pull it, or the course is running fast, you could run through the fairway and end up on the hill with the ball below your feet and a long way home.

Once you've negotiated the teeshot this is what you have to get home:
http://tinyurl.com/dxchv

The quality of your tee shot obviously determines your options on the approach, laying up to the 100 is sometimes the smartest
descision if your 1st shot was less than you'd hoped for. Avoid the 2 small bunkers on the left and, as with the tee shot, don't miss to far right.

[Tyler Kearns]

David,

I think the genius behind hazards and greens set on the diagonal to the line of play is that it creates an infinite number of angles of approach. These angles are commensurate with the degree of risk or carry that the player attempts off the tee. The diagonal scenario presents players with a variety of options, which must be weighed against a fair assessment of one's own capabilities.

TK