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Jason Topp

  • Total Karma: 5
Green Committee
« on: November 11, 2005, 10:28:03 AM »
I have joined the Green Committee.  I do not have a particular agenda other than supporting our superintendant, who I think does an outstanding job, encouraging the continuation of tree removal, which I understand has been budgeted for on an annual basis, and preserving our course, which has gone through a rennovation plan over the last five years.  My biggest goal is to learn and to prevent actions that might in some way impair the quality of our course.

I am completely unfamiliar with the politics of such commitees or ours in particular.  I would be interested in hearing any advice those on this site have.
« Last Edit: November 11, 2005, 10:48:21 AM by Jason Topp »

Brian_Ewen

  • Total Karma: -1
Re:Greens Committee
« Reply #1 on: November 11, 2005, 10:32:30 AM »
Jason

GREEN Committee surely ? .  ;)

Pedantically yours .
Brian

Jason Topp

  • Total Karma: 5
Re:Green Committee
« Reply #2 on: November 11, 2005, 10:49:06 AM »
Brian - I modified.  I can't recall what it is called but I would hate to be pedantically challenged. :)

Dan Kelly

  • Total Karma: 0
Re:Greens Committee
« Reply #3 on: November 11, 2005, 10:54:54 AM »
Jason --

One very specific bit of advice, for Oak Ridge:

Get rid of that buckthorn! It's an insidious weed that the state of Minnesota has officially declared war on. See http://www.dnr.state.mn.us/invasives/terrestrialplants/woody/buckthorn/index.html

You guys have some by the 14th tee, a lot along Oak Ridge Road (and a bunch elsewhere, I'm guessing; it's EVERYWHERE in the Bellgrove neighborhood to the north of you).

Yes, getting rid of it would open portions of the course to outside eyes, and would open portions of the outside to golfers' eyes -- but getting rid of it would be a community service, and would almost certainly improve the free flow of air. That being so, it couldn't help but improve the golf course.

The Buckthorn War appears to be one of those unwinnable wars -- but still worth fighting, because if you don't fight it, you lose it.

Dan

P.S. The method: (1) Pull it up by its roots, or (2) Saw it as near to the ground as possible and hit it immediately with Roundup. Cf. http://www.dnr.state.mn.us/invasives/terrestrialplants/woody/buckthorn/control.html
« Last Edit: November 11, 2005, 11:01:47 AM by Dan Kelly »
"There's no money in doing less." -- Joe Hancock, 11/25/2010
"Rankings are silly and subjective..." -- Tom Doak, 3/12/2016

cary lichtenstein

  • Total Karma: -3
Re:Green Committee
« Reply #4 on: November 11, 2005, 03:48:53 PM »
Jason:

Support your greens chairman 100%, even if he is an idiot.

When you become greens chairman, you can then do everything the right way ;D

Cary
Live Jupiter, Fl, was  4 handicap, played top 100 US, top 75 World. Great memories, no longer play, 4 back surgeries. I don't miss a lot of things about golf, life is simpler with out it. I miss my 60 degree wedge shots, don't miss nasty weather, icing, back spasms. Last course I played was Augusta

Brian_Ewen

  • Total Karma: -1
Re:Green Committee
« Reply #5 on: November 11, 2005, 03:52:11 PM »
GREEN Chairman  surely ?  ::)

Brian_Ewen

  • Total Karma: -1
Re:Green Committee
« Reply #6 on: November 11, 2005, 03:53:14 PM »
I really didnt think I would have to post this again .  ;)

Only this month, in a once respected British greenkeeping journal (and no slip of the pen either, since the error was repeated several times), reference was made to greens staff and greens committees. Of all people, it's hard to believe a professional organization would perpetuate such a gaff, but perhaps ignorance is bliss!

Golf course managers, committee members, club secretaries and, of course, all golfers should be aware of the meaning and origins of words exclusive to the game. Frequent misuse of golf terms is to be found in all manner of so-called official histories of the game and in various articles published by accepted experts, such misuse continuing in print and common language to the present day. The belief that such bastardization becomes acceptable through frequent use is one that finds no favor in these more enlightened times.

Let us start with the playing area—or as we commonly refer to it today, the course. In the earliest phase the game was played on seaside links; common wasteland twixt land and sea used also for archery practice, football, bleaching clothes, breeding rabbits etc. — to say nothing of courting couples and the like.

When the game spread inland the term 'links' was in many instances mistakenly used to describe the land on which the game was played.

Linksland, by proper definition, is "undulating sandy land close to the shoreline beside coastal towns and villages. Often close to the lowest point of rivers before they reach the sea, the glacial alluvium deposited by rivers joined the sand of the bay to form broad fertile deposits. The prevailing off-shore wind and storms constantly blew sand inland, creating the uneven grassy land immediately behind the beach, know as the links." *

More frequently, however, the word 'green' was favored over 'links'. After all, cricket—the national game of England with similar rustic origins—was played on the village green. So the golf 'green' was the accepted terminology for inland courses around the period 1880—1914 when the original golf boom was in full swing.

There are many terms derived from the word 'green'—some familiar to our ears—which have persisted to the present day in common usage

GREENKEEPER-— Self explanatory. NEVER greenskeeper!

GREEN STAFF — Always two words: staff who work on the green.

GREEN COMMITTEE — Never greens committee please. Course committee not an acceptable alternative.

GREEN CHAIRMAN — Boss of the green committee. A greens chairman, if such a person were to exist, might be ridiculed as overseeing the cabbages and sprouts!

RUB OF THE GREEN — Becomes intelligible when the meaning of green is understood.

GREEN FEE — Course fee is altogether too coarse !

THROUGH THE GREEN - Applies to the whole area (except tee and putting green , and all hazards ) of the course being played .

PUTTING GREEN - Where the 4.25' diameter hole is found.

PRACTICE GREEN - The practice area, NOT a putting green.

PRACTICE PUTTING GREEN - Yes, you've got it !

Evan Fleisher

  • Total Karma: 0
Re:Green Committee
« Reply #7 on: November 11, 2005, 03:57:33 PM »
Jason:

Support your greens chairman 100%, even if he is an idiot.

When you become greens chairman, you can then do everything the right way ;D

Cary

Great advice!  I too am (hopefully) next up on our clubs green committee for next year...will know more in a few weeks.  This will be my first attempt at sitting on this committee at our club, and I am anxious to get involved.
Born Rochester, MN. Grew up Miami, FL. Live Cleveland, OH. Handicap 13.2. Have 26 & 23 year old girls and wife of 29 years. I'm a Senior Supply Chain Business Analyst for Vitamix. Diehard walker, but tolerate cart riders! Love to travel, always have my sticks with me. Mollydooker for life!

Jason Topp

  • Total Karma: 5
Re:Green Committee
« Reply #8 on: November 11, 2005, 04:11:49 PM »
At least I am learning some new words! :)

From Dictionary.com

pe·dan·tic    ( P )  Pronunciation Key  (p-dntk)
adj.
Characterized by a narrow, often ostentatious concern for book learning and formal rules: a pedantic attention to details.


Unfortunately, it appears dictionary.com is perpetuating the "greenskeeper" myth.  The results of my search:
 
1st search:

No entry found for greenkeeper.

Did you mean green keeper?

2nd search:

No entry found for green keeper.

Did you mean greenskeeper?

3rd search:

greens·keep·er    ( P )  Pronunciation Key  (grnzkpr)
n.
One who is responsible for the maintenance of a golf course.

 ;D

Dan Kelly

  • Total Karma: 0
Re:Green Committee
« Reply #9 on: November 11, 2005, 04:13:39 PM »
PUTTING GREEN - Where the 4.25' diameter hole is found.

With a hole like that, guys wouldn't be using those broomstick putters and godawful-ugly CLAW (tm) grips.
"There's no money in doing less." -- Joe Hancock, 11/25/2010
"Rankings are silly and subjective..." -- Tom Doak, 3/12/2016

Anthony_Nysse

  • Total Karma: 0
Re:Green Committee
« Reply #10 on: November 11, 2005, 04:42:32 PM »
Hum....
  I always thought the committee oversaw the decisions on all the greens,not just one, therfore, it's a greens committee.

Tony Nysse
Asst. "Greenskeeper"
Long Cove Club
HHI, SC
Anthony J. Nysse
Director of Golf Courses & Grounds
Apogee Club
Hobe Sound, FL

SL_Solow

  • Total Karma: 0
Re:Green Committee
« Reply #11 on: November 11, 2005, 05:02:49 PM »
I have served as Green Chairman or coChair  for more than 10 years.  I'll be happy to discuss this privately as there is a lot to cover in your question.  However, my main piece of advice is to find a good greenkeeper and then try to influence the committee to support him.  The main role of the committee should be to set expectations for maintenance practices and work on budgets.  After that it should serve as a buffer between the Green staff and those members who, well intentioned or not, try to get in the way.  Find a good professional and help him (her) do his job.  

Dan Herrmann

  • Total Karma: 0
Re:Green Committee
« Reply #12 on: November 11, 2005, 05:07:08 PM »
Amen to that.  Most superintendants today have at least a bachelor's degree in turf management/agronomy.  They went to college for 4 years studying this stuff.  Believe me, they know more about grasses and plant life than folks on the committee ever will.

Trust the superintendant!

Jason Topp

  • Total Karma: 5
Re:Green Committee
« Reply #13 on: November 11, 2005, 05:16:59 PM »
Dan and SL:

Your advice certainly jibes with my instincts (and the instincts of anyone who has seen my lawn).  We have a wonderful superintendant and I've seen what a difference that can make when the superintendant at my former public course left to take the job at Hazeltine.

Thanks.

Kelly Blake Moran

Re:Green Committee
« Reply #14 on: November 11, 2005, 05:31:45 PM »
Jason,

Spend a lot of time with your super.  Ask questions.  Verify what you are told by anyone including your super.  Treat him as an  equal, don't put him on a pedestal...don't put him "in his place".  If he hires T.O.'s agent, shoot both of 'em right between the eyes. ::)

cary lichtenstein

  • Total Karma: -3
Re:Green Committee
« Reply #15 on: November 11, 2005, 05:43:37 PM »
I still think its the "greens committee"
Live Jupiter, Fl, was  4 handicap, played top 100 US, top 75 World. Great memories, no longer play, 4 back surgeries. I don't miss a lot of things about golf, life is simpler with out it. I miss my 60 degree wedge shots, don't miss nasty weather, icing, back spasms. Last course I played was Augusta

Jason Topp

  • Total Karma: 5
Re:Green Committee
« Reply #16 on: November 11, 2005, 05:57:17 PM »

Michael Hayes

  • Total Karma: 0
Re:Green Committee
« Reply #17 on: November 11, 2005, 07:01:23 PM »
As a golf course superintendent (I much prefer greenkeeper, it sounds like so much less work ::), I would advise you to seek out the needs of the golf course...this generally can be best accomplished over cold beers at a bar not on site.  ;D.  Really, as a guy who has dealt with green committees for the last seven years, please find out how you can help the hard working greenkeeper that you don't pay enough.  Listen to what he needs, it won't be a new truck, he is going to ask for more labor and support from the committee....STAND UP FOR YOUR GREENKEEPER!!!  If you can't support him or her IM me I'll come work for you :D :D
« Last Edit: November 11, 2005, 07:31:59 PM by Michael Hayes »
Bandonistas Unite!!!

Wayne_Freedman

  • Total Karma: 0
Re:Green Committee
« Reply #18 on: November 11, 2005, 07:36:22 PM »
Try to avoid running amuck.

Do not attempt to redesign the course.

Try to gain a sense of changes made in the past, and why.

Listen when members complain.

When those complaints are stupid or ill-infomed, just nod at those members, smile, and indulge them as if they are retarded.

Michael Hayes

  • Total Karma: 0
Re:Green Committee
« Reply #19 on: November 11, 2005, 07:41:40 PM »
Listen when members complain.

When those complaints are stupid or ill-infomed, just nod at those members, smile, and indulge them as if they are retarded.

This is similar adivece that I received when I became super...just nod your head, say good idea and do what you know is best for the course 8)
Bandonistas Unite!!!

rgkeller

Re:Green Committee
« Reply #20 on: November 11, 2005, 07:51:16 PM »
Take the lead in reforming mainenance practices at your club and throughout the country and the world and demand that the Committee change its name to the "Light Brown Committee."

Dan Kelly

  • Total Karma: 0
Re:Green Committee
« Reply #21 on: November 11, 2005, 08:10:33 PM »
"Light Brown Committee."

Shouldn't that be "Light Browns Committee"?
"There's no money in doing less." -- Joe Hancock, 11/25/2010
"Rankings are silly and subjective..." -- Tom Doak, 3/12/2016

Marc Haring

  • Total Karma: 0
Re:Green Committee
« Reply #22 on: November 12, 2005, 05:21:32 AM »
Try to create a green(‘s) constitution that states that the aim of the course is to provide maximum enjoyment to all participants of the game of golf, for as long as is possible throughout the year, whilst remaining within agreed budgets and promoting positive environmental benefit.

Having done that, give it to your superintendent and then spend all your remaining energies in the pursuit of disbanding the green committee.

James Bennett

  • Total Karma: 0
Re:Green Committee
« Reply #23 on: November 13, 2005, 09:09:03 PM »
1. Try to understand the program the Chairmen has (hopefully he has one).  The document at the end of the Scott Anderson(Huntingdon Valley) feature interview is an excellent example of policies that can be endorsed by the Course Committee (and Board for that matter).
2. Listen to the Superintendent.  He is the expert.  If his answers make sense, trust him.
3. Recognise the trade-offs involved in course presentation - if year-round playability is the goal, then you may have to give up some short-term presentation for the long-term benefit.
4.  Understand the extreme weather conditions that effect you course, and the maintenance practices used to overcome those extremes when they occur.
5.  Understand that the climatic conditions and challenges faced by the course staff change every year, every month and every week.

Above all, have fun, enjoy the education into human politics and agronomy, and remember to enjoy your golf.

James B
« Last Edit: November 13, 2005, 10:50:42 PM by James Bennett »
Bob; its impossible to explain some of the clutter that gets recalled from the attic between my ears. .  (SL Solow)

RJ_Daley

  • Total Karma: 1
Re:Green Committee
« Reply #24 on: November 14, 2005, 12:02:16 AM »
Why didn't Kelly go ape apples when you guys spelled it "superintendant"[sic]

I like James Bennett's advice best.  

Also, go to your super's office and ask if he keeps all his back issues of Golf Course Management, and Golfdom magazines.  In GCM, they have a year end December index of topics written for that year.  Use it to research turf questions.  Get at least two turf grass science books, and learn some of the cultural and chemical/fertility maintenance practices that are needed to promote healthy turf.  And, as James states, really give Scott Anderson's interview serious thought, and realise that a measure of time is needed to get to an ideal state of health for the turf sward.  Then, promote the super's efforts in a professional way to get to the best turf conditions as weather variables present themselves seasonally (not just the greenest).

Finally, attend a GCSAA convention with your super this winter, and take a seminar or two.  Then go play golf and have a good time while you are on the junket with your super.  And, unabashedly charge it to your club. ;D ;)
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