News:

Welcome to the Golf Club Atlas Discussion Group!

Each user is approved by the Golf Club Atlas editorial staff. For any new inquiries, please contact us.


JNC Lyon

  • Karma: +0/-0
50 courses in the South better than East Lake????
« on: November 09, 2005, 08:48:06 PM »
Having only watched the Tour Championship on Television, I got the impression that East Lake is not a particularily great golf course.  There were no holes that I would classify as great or stunning.  The 18th seemed borderline bland, apart from the two-tiered green.  The tree situation appeared awful. Then I got to thinking, how many courses in the South are better than East Lake???  I tried counting the number of courses South of the Mason-Dixon line and East of the Mississippi that could reasonably be ranked ahead of East Lake.  I came up with OVER 50 COURSES!!! Here they are, in alphabetical order of states:

Shoal Creek
Seminole
Trump International
Black Diamond-Quarry
TPC at Sawgrass
Calusa Pines
Jupiter Hills (Hills)
World Woods (Pine Barrens)
Pine Tree
Boca Rio

Indian Creek
Augusta National
Peachtree
Ocean Forest
Hawks Ridge
Sea Island (Seaside)
Cuscowilla
Lookout Mountain
Valhalla
Congressional (Blue)

Baltimore (Five Farms East)
Bulle Rock
Beechtree
Pinehurst No. 2
Wade Hampton
CC of North Carolina (Dogwood)
Forest Creek
Pine Needles Lodge
Tobacco Road
Mid Pines

Old Town
Oak Hollow
The Ocean Course
Long Cove
Sage Valley
Briar's Creek
Harbour Town
Greenville (Chanticleer)
Musgrove Mill
Yeamans Hall

CC of Charleston
Secession
The Dunes
Caledonia Golf and Fish Club
Cassique
Legends (Heathlands)
The Honors Course
Holston Hills
Black Creek
Kinloch

Homestead (Cascades)
Robert Trent Jones
Pete Dye
Chechessee Creek
Greenbrier (Old White)


This many??? Agree/ Disagree??
For those whohave played the course, is it better than any of these???
« Last Edit: November 09, 2005, 09:18:32 PM by JNC_Lyon »
"That's why Oscar can't see that!" - Philip E. "Timmy" Thomas

Mike_Young

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:50 courses in the South better than East Lake????
« Reply #1 on: November 09, 2005, 08:55:03 PM »
Disagree..better than most of those mentioned.
"just standing on a corner in Winslow Arizona"

JNC Lyon

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:50 courses in the South better than East Lake????
« Reply #2 on: November 09, 2005, 08:56:07 PM »
Which ones?  Why?  What is it that makes East Lake so great???
"That's why Oscar can't see that!" - Philip E. "Timmy" Thomas

Mike_Young

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:50 courses in the South better than East Lake????
« Reply #3 on: November 09, 2005, 09:24:26 PM »
How many of those you mentioned have you played?  It plays better than many of those you have mentioned.  
"just standing on a corner in Winslow Arizona"

JNC Lyon

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:50 courses in the South better than East Lake????
« Reply #4 on: November 09, 2005, 09:32:20 PM »
I have played only a small number of courses on the list, and visited a couple others.  This is the reason I ask the question. I am merely proposing courses that I think, with information I have gathered from various sources, could be better than the East Lake I saw on television.  What is it that makes East Lake so great, better than these courses.  To merely say that it plays better gives me no idea of what the finer features of the course are.  The course appeared to have few holes of merit.  What makes the holes at East Lake holes of merit, and, also important, how do the holes make it better than the courses listed above?
"That's why Oscar can't see that!" - Philip E. "Timmy" Thomas

Patrick_Mucci

Re:50 courses in the South better than East Lake????
« Reply #5 on: November 09, 2005, 09:35:11 PM »
JNC Lyon,

If you get the chance, read Charles Blair MacDonald's "Scotland's Gift".

Read the next to the last paragraph on page 295.

It provides some insight into the process of evaluating individual holes and golf courses.

JNC Lyon

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:50 courses in the South better than East Lake????
« Reply #6 on: November 09, 2005, 09:53:23 PM »
I do have the book, but it seems to contain no page 295 ???

Is this the paragraph you are referring to?

"There are many moot questions argued by noted designers of golf courses.  The character and placing of hazards has always been a bone of contention.  Why I cannot quite understand, because one has only to study the great holes which the world concedes are unexcelled.  There should be every variety of hazard.  Variety is not only "the spice of life" but it is the very foundation of golfing architecture.  Diversity in nature is universal.  Let your golfing architecture mirror it.  An ideal or classical golf course demands variety, personality, and, above all, the charm of romance."
"That's why Oscar can't see that!" - Philip E. "Timmy" Thomas

SB

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:50 courses in the South better than East Lake????
« Reply #7 on: November 09, 2005, 10:11:43 PM »
One problem in evaluating East Lake on TV is that most of the challenge, and most of the fun, is on the green.  VERY interesting greens with big undulations.  They like to keep it fast, making every putt an adventure.  Green bunker complexes are OK to very good, but most fairway shots are fairly uneventful.  You tell me if that makes a course good or bad.

I actually find the 18th to be one of my favorite par 3's anywhere.  Demanding shot, demanding putt, and all at the end of the round when the money's on the line.  Love it!

Actually, all the 3s are pretty good.  

T_MacWood

Re:50 courses in the South better than East Lake????
« Reply #8 on: November 09, 2005, 10:14:57 PM »
God, I hope so.

Steve_ Shaffer

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:50 courses in the South better than East Lake????
« Reply #9 on: November 09, 2005, 10:26:40 PM »
Implicit in the question is the theory/desire that a golf course must be "particularly great" to host a significant PGA Tour event. Am I correct? If so, the course held up and the tournament,although devoid of a good finish, was somewhat interesting to watch. The rough was not a major factor due to poor weather a few weeks before the event.
"Some of us worship in churches, some in synagogues, some on golf courses ... "  Adlai Stevenson
Hyman Roth to Michael Corleone: "We're bigger than US Steel."
Ben Hogan “The most important shot in golf is the next one”

Andy Doyle

Re:50 courses in the South better than East Lake????
« Reply #10 on: November 09, 2005, 10:58:20 PM »
JNC_Lyon:

I've not played many courses on your list & I'm not much for ranking or comparing courses to each other anyway.  I have great regard for East Lake & have written about my affection for this course in other threads.  I've only played it twice, but I've walked the property a lot as both a spectator and volunteer during a number of Tour Championships - including the most recent.  I will try to separate my comments about the course from the history, ambiance and experience of playing East Lake - all of which are outstanding.

I'm not sure why East Lake seems to get so little respect.  In a way, it must be like Pinehurst #2 - I've heard or read many people's comments that they weren't impressed after playing it.

The property is very appealing - rolling hills, pines and hardwoods, ponds and small lakes - but it's not gorgeous/dramatic on the order of Pebble Beach.  It's a classic layout - tees are close to the preceding greens.  It's a very pleasant course to walk - notable for the Atlanta area.

Everything at East Lake is right in front of you.  There isn't really anything in the way of blind shots & nothing that would be considered quirky.  It's all about subtlety - being in the wrong spot on your drive or approach isn't going to kill you, it's just going to make it much more difficult to shoot the score you want to shoot.  It's not a shotgun, it's a thousand nicks from a razor blade.

I'm not sure what you consider great or stunning, but let's look at #18.  If you haven't seen this hole in person, I would caution against judgement based upon what you've seen on TV.  I've always heard the camera lense flattens perspective - I truly learned this the first time I saw Augusta National in person.   I had watched the Masters on TV for years - I was stunned to see the contours in person.

I have marshalled on #18 for the past 2 years, and I can personally attest that a very large number of people walk across that causeway, trudge up the hill to the tee, turn around to look at the green and say "Wow" (or some more profane version of that - the most common being "Holy Shit").  There is probably not more than 5 or 10 feet of elevation difference between the tee and the green - but from 235 yards the ground falls away to the lake below, then rises sharply to the green.  The illusion is that the green is dramatically elevated above the tee.

The green looks like a big catcher's mitt, tilted towards you with deep bunkers guarding the left and right front.  There is a big semi-circular ridge through the green, roughly 1/3 below and 2/3 above.  If the pin is on the lower tier, it's a nervy shot to get close because of the flanking bunkers.  However, a shot that goes long onto the upper tier may be worse than being in the bunkers - the putt down to the lower tier is really scary.  

If the hole is up on top, it's no piece of cake either.  A shot that is short flirts with the bunkers, or is left with a putt up and over the ridge.  In order to reach the top tier, the danger is being left, right, or long - in which case the shoulders of the green will shed the ball well off the green.  The remaining chip onto a green that slopes well down to the front is not a comfortable prospect.

On Saturday, Bart Bryant made 18 look easy - put your tee ball in the right bunker and hole the sand shot for a birdie.  I was there all day, and I can tell you most of those very delicate sand shots went 20 feet past the hole and resulted in a lot of bogeys - his happened to hit the hole and go in.

Did I mention this was from 235 yards?  These guys were hitting anything from 5 wood to 4 iron - depending upon how far up the tees were, where the hole was, and the wind.  Again, it's not a hole where you're probably going to make 5 or 6 - but you are REALLY happy with 3 and it's VERY easy to make 4.

East Lake is the girl next door - the girl you grew up with, that you are comfortable with, that is easy to talk to, that is funny, smart, and good-looking in a very natural way.  The girl you mostly ignored because you were obsessed with the head cheerleader.  Once you got a little older and more mature, you finally began to appreciate what was right in front of you all along.  I'll take Sandra Bullock over Pamela Anderson any day.

Andy

TEPaul

Re:50 courses in the South better than East Lake????
« Reply #11 on: November 10, 2005, 06:12:20 AM »
JNC Lyons;

What the hell's the matter with you? You forgot the greatest of them all in the South---eg the incomparable Fernandina Beach Municipal G.C.!!!!

This is one of the reasons I hate magazine course rating and ranking. I cannot understand how over the years well over a thousand of these idiotic raters have missed putting this gem in America's or even the World's top ten!

And I cannot understand how Fernandina's architect, Tommy Birdsong, has never been considered one of the best in the history of architecture along-side the likes of Mackenzie, Colt, Ross, Tillinghast et al.

What he did at Fernandina is the ultimate in classic minimalist architecture. I doubt Tommy moved more than 1,500 teaspoons of earth to make that course---and it shows that beautifully. And he even managed to do all that on a pretty bland and ordinary site.

I mean, come on, is that genius, or what?

JNC Lyon

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:50 courses in the South better than East Lake????
« Reply #12 on: November 10, 2005, 07:14:08 AM »
TEPaul, I totally missed Fernandina in my listing.  I was actually checking it out on aerial yesterday, very cool stuff.

Andy Doyle, thanks for the great insight.  I am sure you have played the course many times, and holes with subtlety-- appreciated after repeated plays-- like #18 are make the course special.
"That's why Oscar can't see that!" - Philip E. "Timmy" Thomas

Dale_McCallon

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:50 courses in the South better than East Lake????
« Reply #13 on: November 10, 2005, 08:37:24 AM »
TEPaul,

Here is one magazine that has not forgotten your beloved Fernandina Beach.  In the latest T&L Golf, in an article about hidden Florida gems, it has a breif writeup on Fernandina.

A.G._Crockett

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:50 courses in the South better than East Lake????
« Reply #14 on: November 10, 2005, 08:40:44 AM »
JNC Lyon,
I read your initial post last night, and thought about it all night before replying this morning.  I think Andy Doyle has it dead right; East Lake deserves more respect than you are giving it.  It is, in every respect, just a lovely golf course.  

I've played too few of the other courses on your list, but I enjoyed all of them.  I won't attempt to compare East Lake to a place like Hawk's Ridge, for instance, but I think East Lake would hold its own nicely in such comparisons.  

Since 18 was mentioned specifically, I'll agree with Andy on that as well; I think it is a great par 3 (and not just because I got up and down from the right front bunker for a 3 when I played there in July! :))  There are many who find a par 3 as a finishing hole somehow undesirable, but if you can get past that, it is a great hole.  It is visually more intimidating than it appears on TV, but the green is relatively friendly once you get there, which also doesn't show up on the screen.  In fact, I found the last three holes to be a terrific stretch of finishing holes; one long downhill, one a shorter dogleg with water in play, one uphill and long for a par three.  Very challenging, great variety, and a great routing.

By the way, I'll let go without comment the idea that Maryland and W.Va. are in the South!  I'll grudgingly concede Ky.  ;)
« Last Edit: November 10, 2005, 10:45:06 AM by A.G._Crockett »
"Golf...is usually played with the outward appearance of great dignity.  It is, nevertheless, a game of considerable passion, either of the explosive type, or that which burns inwardly and sears the soul."      Bobby Jones

Patrick_Mucci

Re:50 courses in the South better than East Lake????
« Reply #15 on: November 10, 2005, 09:25:21 AM »
JNC Lyon,

The next to the last paragraph on page 295 of "Scotland's Gift" reads as follows:

"I do not believe any one is qualified to pass on the merits of any one hole, let alone eighteen holes, unless he has played them under all the varying conditions possible--varying winds, rain, heat, frost, etc."

His comments that follow that passage, regarding the wind, are interesting as well.

Eric_Dorsey

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:50 courses in the South better than East Lake????
« Reply #16 on: November 10, 2005, 02:48:36 PM »
After designing East Lake for a video game from a 2' contour map, I must confess to falling for this old girl too.  East Lake seems to exhube charm, history, and class - like all the great old courses.  A straight-forward, old-style course with great variety in trees, and some nice placements for greens.  I do repeat the previous opinions that the approaches are rather ordinary for the most part.

Many holes have some 20-40' elevation in them!  #5, #9, #10, #15.  Some beautiful looks from the tees also on those holes - especially #16 & #17.  #17 has to be my favorite hole on the course demanding a slight draw around the tall pines the give you a cushion from the 27-acre East Lake body of water itself.

I also second the sentiments the #18th is a great finisher.  It takes a true 'great' shot to hit that green if your playing the backs, which is what the last hole should bring out I think.

Lets not forget the beautiful #6 hole originally designed by Ross I believe (or Bendelow).  A great place for a green on the peninsula-like setting with the clubhouse in the background.    HOW CAN THIS NOT COME OFF TV AS NOTHING BUT GREAT!??

On top of all of this, one of the most beautiful clubhouses on tour, with the grand 'Tudor' style and the charming 1st tee right next to the clubhouse.  Not to mention the subtle, nice fall colors Atlanta has in late fall has made this a must watch tourney for me every year.  East Lake is a course I'd not miss for anything.