Hidden tees

[Bill Overdorf]

I'm almost ashamed to post the following due to the absolutely ridiculous nature of the concept. Oh well,   today a party asked me if I had ever heard of a golf course wherein the developer had concealed a set of "way-back" hidden tees, the location of which was known only to and to be used by himself and his guests. Completely off the wall at best, but huh? Please delete the second word of this post "almost", but I suppose there have been equally obtuse past topics - right? RIGHT?? Oh, what the hell............

[Mike_Cirba]

Bill;

I read on here that some holes at Pacific Dunes might have "hidden tees".  Is that the course the party in question was referring to?

[Will E]

Bill,
I think this is a cool post.
Pete Dye has just put in some tees that could be used in the 2004 PGA at Whistling Straits that you have to keep an eye out for. I'm sure that a lot of people haven't seen the back tee on 16 at La Quinta Mountain (one of my favorites).
Perhaps the course with the most hidden tees I've seen is the Dunes club. Some of the tees are as hidden as the course and it really adds to the charm of this wonderful place.

Are you planning on building some hidden tees?
Can't wait to see how things are going at Chuckanut.

[Ben Cowan-Dewar]

Mike is right, 18 at Pacific Dunes comes to mind.

Seems to be more common of public courses, which are trying to discourage amateurs from playing the back markers.

[Doug Siebert]

I'd be kind of surprised if some new courses aren't designed at least with additional teeing grounds planned, even if they haven't ever been marked and mowed.  Sometimes I'll notice a particularly wonderful potential tee on a course and wish it was used, in many cases I'm sure the architect thought of it first.  My home course's #14 has a wonderful site for back tees that would make it a very demanding tee shot, but it is now overgrown with trees in that area so everyone always thinks I'm nuts when I point it out.  Before it was overgrown it was obvious (though many still thought I was nuts, as they found the tee shot hard enough already)

For any course where they are mowed, I find it hard to believe they could be kept a secret.  Especially from the readership of GCA  You don't keep people off tees you don't want them playing with secrets, you do it with manners, rules, and lack of mowing (in order of increasing insistence)

[ForkaB]

Most British Open courses have relatively recently constructed back tees that are not that easy to find, unless you are looking for them, because they are set back (and often at an angle) from the natural flow of play.  TOC, Troon and Turnberry are the best examples of this.

My understanding of Pacific Dunes and Bandon Dunes is that there are many tees dotted all over the landscape, not all of them "tiger tees" and not all of them designed to be played towards the green that is on the scorecard.  Cool, that, if true.

[Jeff Mingay]

There's a weird little tee for the 5th hole at The Golf Club, way back behind the 4th green, that's just big enough for a golfer to stand on! If I recall correctly, this tee was an original built when that course was constructed in the mid 1960s.

I don't think there's any doubt Pete Dye had foresight in regard to the ever-increasing capababilities of the modern golf ball. I get the impression that, back in the '60s, he understood better than anyone that his courses would "shrink" in short time.

That said, I'll guess there are probably a few more "hidden back tees," like that one at the 5th at The Golf Club, in Dye's repetoire. Particularly at his most notable courses.

[Matt Dupre]

I believe the par-5 12th at The Medalist has a "Norman tee" which is tucked back in the trees behind some vegetation.  It stretches the hole to over 600 yards, with an extremely long carry for the tee shot....

[Doug Wright]

Bill,

Mike Keiser built a hidden tee to the right of the 17th fairway at Bandon Dunes. The hole plays as a par 3 over a ravine from there. I'm sure there are others at Bandon and Pacific. I think it's a cool concept. Obviously not possible everywhere, but if you've got the land and the $$ why not?

All The Best,

[peter mcknight]

A few thoughts off the top of my head:

Industry Hills Eisenhower Course holes 14 and 17.  With the 14th, as soon as you exit the 13th green stage left, walk between the bunkers on the left and you will see the original teeing ground for the 14th, which they never use anymore.  Instead of plyaing 461, it plays about 365.  Ordinarily, this hole would play into the breeze.  The 17th hole's tee is way on top of the hill, which, if you look at it for the first time, you might think it is just part of the old Puente Hills no.2 landfill site.

Weyhill, which I have wrote about in my home course, has some hidden tees no longer used--the 5th, 13th, 16th and 17th all come to mind.  If SVCC restored the original 5th back tee, that hole would really be something special.

Also, take a look at the player's card for Kiawah's Ocean Course--Dye placed in tees when designing the course that push it to about 7630.  Some were used in the 1991 Ryder Cup, but there are plenty of others that exist.  For example, the 17th played at 197 for the Ryder Cup, but there is a tee well back at 219.

[ted janeczek]

the 18th hole at old head in kinsale, ireland has an 18th tee which only the big boys would want to play. and which, if not pointed out by the caddies, would probably be missed by the "normal" player. it sits just below the light house, on a peninsula, and therefore requires a considerable carry to reach the fairway , as opposed to the "normal tees", which are much tamer.

[Dan Grossman]

When I played Panmure in Scotland, there were a few back tees for Open Qualifying (when it is held at Carnoustie) that were pretty ridiculous.  Added a LOT of yardage to the card.

The other course that I played that has tees behind the ones listed on the scorecard is the Dye course at Colleton River.  There were a couple of back tees that made par 4s play 460+, etc.

[RobertO4653]

Dad, Hidden tees, are you going behind my back and building tees at Chuckanut I don't know about? Actually the best hidden tee I have played was when I was working in Cabo and we would play our regular Thurs. game, the 17th hole at Cabo Del Sol has a tee right behind the 16th green it is only known by the regulars and stretches the par 3 to 210 yards, the reason I like this Tee is because it adds to the design of the hole or should I say the Architects theory for designing the hole the way he did. We must first define hidden Tee, is it a tee that has been contrived by the membership, or a Tee that is added on later in a remodel, you see a hidden tee works if the architect leaves room to either build a Tee or builds one during construction that adds to the design of a hole. It cannot be a after thought. I also think that we should back up one and take a look at a couple important aspects of the evolution golf and the equipment, and that is you always want if possible to allow for lengthing that won't cause the course financial hardships to do it.  The second do not build a Tee that is unplayable, I have mapped a course where the Tee was added for length and it was not functional, it offered a 260 yard carry over a ravine and from the Tee to Landing area it is a 30 foot elevation rise. ugly!!!!!!
We have several instances at Chuckanut because of the routing that if you don't know the back Tee is there you will miss it, yet it doesn't look like it was a after thought. Holes 3, 6, 8, 9, 11, 14, 16,.  

Enjoy Dad

Robert

[Matt_Ward]

Peter McKnight:

I've played the Ike at Industry Hills a few times and know full well the holes you are describing. My issue is a simple one -- a facility can't list a back tee yardage as being in play if in fact the very tee in question is rarely, if ever, used.

I have no issue with what Pac Dunes does because the "hidden" tees there are not listed on the actual scorecard. In other words -- there are certain clubs (i.e. Ike at Industry Hills) that insert the distances of back / hidden tees for course rating and slope purposes, but really are never used.

My point is a simple one -- if you post the yardages of these "hidden" tees for the purposes in "bumping up" CR and Slope then you must permit players to play them on a regular basis.

At The Ocean Course the distances from the "hidden" tees are not calculated on the official scorecard, I believe. That's fine.

[Bob_Huntley]

Mauna Kea, when it first opened in the mid-sixties had a few tees of the beaten track.

[John Bernhardt]

I do not see them that often although they are on some holes at Pacific Dunes. and I have seen some new tees in
Scotland. As a general rule money should minimize tees that are not for regular or tournement play at a public course?

[Slag_Bandoon]

 Bandon Dunes and Pacific Dunes have many satellite tees - yoofamystically called Keiser Tees.  #2 BD had a whole collection to the south but Kidd decided on a change of direction to add variety. I'm pretty sure they are still mowed and lovingly cared for.   #4 BD has at least one in the tall grass seaward.  #1 PD behind 18th green.  There's more.
   If I had a course I'd have them as they add variety and strategy.  

[Matt_Ward]

One of the best examples of "hidden" tees and one that gives you plenty of different looks and angles is Rich Havest in Sugar Grove, IL.

[Michael Dugger]

Down to the right of #5 at Pac Dunes.  Doak writes of it in Making of Pacific Dunes.  Built at Keiser's behest, plays a 100 yards to the middle of the green.

[Keith Williams]

I might be wrong, but I believe there was a thread similar
to this a month back or so and Tom Doak himself chimed in
and noted numerous "hidden" tees at Pac Dunes and even
a few tees that could serve both courses.

[Bill Overdorf]

For some unknown reason I don't feel so ashamed about posting something that at first blush seemed so off-the-rack. You guys have a keen knack for attaching a degree of reason for many things that reek of departure from the norm. Thanks.

[Paul Richards]

How about so many of the British Open rota courses?  Many of them have the championship tees, which stay hidden from all of us daily-fee golfers when we venture over there?

[mike_beene]

Two come to mind specifically:# 3 at Mauna Kea which I don't think was ever used(the story is that supposedly Gary Player didn't think he could carry the water when Big 3 golf was filmed) Also,18 at Turnberry,the championship tee left of 17 is hidden enough that I never saw it and couldn't figure out why the hole was so different than I imagined.

[ian]

Its going to happen a lot more.

At Eagle's Nest, we built a dozen so that the course can be stretched to 7500 yards. The irrigation is in and the tees are leveled, but there is no mix or sod. That will come as it is nessessary. All but one have easy walking access routes to make them happen. Course plays at 7200 approximately now.

[Slag_Bandoon]

 You guys have a keen knack for attaching a degree of reason for many things that reek of departure from the norm.

 We specialize in abnormal thinking.

 Dr. Frawnkenstein - "Igor, what was the name on that jar with the brain in it?"  

 Igor - "Abby something"