News:

Welcome to the Golf Club Atlas Discussion Group!

Each user is approved by the Golf Club Atlas editorial staff. For any new inquiries, please contact us.


Ran Morrissett

  • Karma: +0/-0
Jason Topp's Oak Ridge CC is posted...
« on: November 06, 2005, 08:43:28 AM »
...under My Home Course.

One of the hopes in setting up the My Home Course section was that it could highlight architects who invested a lot of time in the dirt. However, because that time was spent on just one or perhaps a few courses, they never received the recognition that perhaps they deserved. John Vander Borght highlighting the great (and talented and hugely underappreciated) Emil 'Dutch' Loeffler's work at Hannastown is the poster boy of such hopes.

Another such example is found in Jason Topp's piece on Oak Ridge CC in Hopkins, Minnesota.

As Jason points out, Minnesota has been very fortunate to attract many of the game's finest architects over the past 90 years. And yet who here has heard of William Clark? Nobody had a few months ago when Jason made a post asking the same question.

Clark apparently raised his hand to be the professional, green keeper and architect of Oak Ridge.  And when the first nine holes opened for play in 1921, he had succeeded!

Like Loeffler, he spent 20 plus years at the same course. The fact that the club selected him to add the second nine in the 1940s - twenty some years after his original nine - speaks to what must have been a strong working relationship between Oak Ridge and Clark.

When an individual devotes a considerable amount of time and energy to a single project, by definition it seems fair to hope that the course will be relatively unique - and Oak Ridge appears to be just that. The lay of the land bunkerless green at the 8th, the  use of the knob in the 12th fairway, the inspired routing over the rolling terrain to yield holes like the 13th, the severe hogsback 17th green - plenty of features abound that show Clark's great use and feel of the property.

The trees have created a parkland atmosphere since Clark's day but the vast majority of the original playing corridors are fully in tact, as Jason notes from studying aerials.

Wouldn't Clark be delighted to read Jason's write-up about enjoying golf here with his son? The confidence that the founding members placed in Clark - and in turn his hard work at the club for almost three decades - has yielded a course for which all current members can take great pride.

Cheers,

T_MacWood

Re:Jason Topp's Oak Ridge CC is posted...
« Reply #1 on: November 06, 2005, 10:28:07 AM »
Jason
Excellent write up. Oak Ridge looks to be a true hidden gem. I love the contours of the fairways.

I have heard of Clark, but don't know much about him. Probably his most famous design was Mt. Plymouth in Florida, sometimes referred to as St. Andrews GC. It recieved a fair amount of publicity and from the few pictures I've seen, it looked interesting. There were plans to make it 36 holes, I'm not sure if the 2nd 18 was ever built. When discussing his work at Mt. Plymouth he was referred to as William Clark of Chicago.

I also found his name associated with a course in the Twin Cities called Superior, also built in the 20's. I believe he was the pro there for a time as well. That is about all I know...I seem to recall reading he was a Scot, maybe from St.Andrews, but I wouldn't swear to it.
« Last Edit: November 06, 2005, 04:46:44 PM by Tom MacWood »

Jason Topp

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Jason Topp's Oak Ridge CC is posted...
« Reply #2 on: November 06, 2005, 11:17:49 AM »
Thanks to Ran for his patience and encouraging me to be a bit more thorough with my historical research, which allowed me to find a great set of aerial photographs dating back to the construction of the second nine.  Also thanks to Tommy Naccarato for help with converting the pictures into a format that worked for the article

If you would like to see more photographs, this is my album of them on photobucket:

http://photobucket.com/albums/b350/jasontopp/Oak%20Ridge/


Tom - As indicated in the article, I was not aware that Clark built anything anywhere else other than Francis A. Gross.  Both courses list him as William D. Clark.  It looks like Mt. Plymouth was built in 1926, so it is possible it was the same guy.  At that time, however, he was serving as the professional at Oak Ridge so he would have been living in Minneapolis.



Jeff Shelman

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Jason Topp's Oak Ridge CC is posted...
« Reply #3 on: November 06, 2005, 12:58:39 PM »
I've been on record on this before, but I think Oak Ridge is the most underrated course in the Twin Cities. It is a wonderful golf course and IMHO not far removed from places like Minikahda and Interlachen.


Don Dinkmeyer

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Jason Topp's Oak Ridge CC is posted...
« Reply #4 on: November 06, 2005, 01:47:08 PM »
Jason -
well done and fun to read. congratulations!

RJ_Daley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Jason Topp's Oak Ridge CC is posted...
« Reply #5 on: November 06, 2005, 09:52:24 PM »
Jason, have you seen old photos from 30s and 40s of the course?  I have to think that almost all the trees, conifers and hardwood ornamentals that we see in your photos are no more than 25-40 years old.  If it is like our course that I see similarities to here in Brown County, Dutch Elm wiped-out a (tree)mendous  {sorry} :-[  number of original trees that were within the original routing.

Thus, I speculate that Oak Ridge was also the receipient of the largess of the "beautification committee" to replace Elms that were lost in the 50s-80s, and they may have over-reached.  

One really has to go to one of these parkland courses that have bitten the bullet on this matter to really see and understand that an agressive tree removal actually will bring out the greatness of the "spines" and lovely contours that obviously exist at Oak Ridge.

Would you agree?  Do you think the members there could be persuaded to consider such?
« Last Edit: November 06, 2005, 09:53:29 PM by RJ_Daley »
No actual golf rounds were ruined or delayed, nor golf rules broken, in the taking of any photographs that may be displayed by the above forum user.

Dan Kelly

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Jason Topp's Oak Ridge CC is posted...
« Reply #6 on: November 06, 2005, 10:40:02 PM »
Thanks, Jason.

Although I could drive the 13th green from my house (if I could thread it through about a thousand trees, and then hold that pint-size green), I've never been on the course. It was fun to see those pictures. That 13th green looks even better from courseside than it does from the road.

I take it back. I was on the course once -- in very late March or early April one year, soon after we'd moved in, when I was itching to play again, and the snow was off the ground. I walked over to the 14th tee with a driver and bag of balls. Teed 'em up and hit 'em from beside the tee box. No divots! No damage!

About 20 balls in, the superintendent came by. One of my neighbors, living across the street from the tee, was apparently perturbed by the sight of someone enjoying himself and so called the clubhouse, who called the superintendent, who walked over from his house just down the road. We'd never met, at that point. (Still haven't, actually.) It couldn't have been clearer, from the expression on his face, that he was entirely on my side -- but duty compelled him to disregard his true sentiments.

He merely looked at me, shook his head sadly, and said: "No."

---

My daughter, who played on the Hopkins girls' varsity last spring, got to play Oak Ridge a bunch of times -- and loves it.
"There's no money in doing less." -- Joe Hancock, 11/25/2010
"Rankings are silly and subjective..." -- Tom Doak, 3/12/2016

RJ_Daley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Jason Topp's Oak Ridge CC is posted...
« Reply #7 on: November 06, 2005, 11:16:49 PM »
Well, since I picked you up at home once, I guess I could find the place. ;D

Dan, you ought to invest in a little mutt, and call him Coorshaw jr. and loose him once in a while out there in the woods behind your house. 8)
No actual golf rounds were ruined or delayed, nor golf rules broken, in the taking of any photographs that may be displayed by the above forum user.

Jason Topp

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Jason Topp's Oak Ridge CC is posted...
« Reply #8 on: November 07, 2005, 12:02:15 AM »
Dick:  

This one is from 1959.  You can see start of the tree planting about which you speculate and you can see the difference between the back nine at the top, the front at the bottom and the two additional holes that were being added at that time (far left corner)



I have some links to modern aerials at work and will post them tomorrow.  

The earliest photo I looked at was from 1940.  Obviously, trees were not a significant part of the landscape at that time.

A large number of trees actually have been removed over the last five years, but, as at most places, it is an ongoing debate as to whether to continue.  Fortunately we have a great local example with Minikahda.

T_MacWood

Re:Jason Topp's Oak Ridge CC is posted...
« Reply #9 on: November 07, 2005, 06:36:26 AM »
Jason
It is possible there were two William Clark's both golf architects, but I suspect they are one and the same. Most of these pros in the midwest moved around often, and most of them had at least one stint in Chicago.

Jason Topp

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Jason Topp's Oak Ridge CC is posted...
« Reply #10 on: November 07, 2005, 09:53:31 AM »
Here are a few notes to the text:

The most recent aerial I can find on the internet for Oak Ridge is:

http://maps.google.com/maps?q=hopkins,+mn&ll=44.938451,-93.412113&spn=0.006652,0.013739&t=k&hl=en .  

That aerial appears to have been taken in 2004 and reflects the current course with the exception of alterations to the first hole designed to make room for a larger practice range and some tree removal.  


A 1991 aerial is on Microsoft Terraserver.

  http://terraserver-usa.com/image.aspx?T=1&S=11&Z=15&X=1168&Y=12440&W=3&qs=%7chopkins%7cMinnesota%7c .  

This picture shows what the course looked like prior to the recent five year renovation plan.  

A largely accurate distance map (minus the contours) can be found on www.golfwits.com .

I started the Twin Cities list from a post by John Conley, see:

 http://www.golfclubatlas.com/forums2/index.php?board=1;action=display;threadid=14033;start=msg239668#msg239668.  

I supplemented with further research of club websites and Donald Ross Society materials.

For a description of Donald Ross’ work in the Twin Cities during this time period see "Donald Ross in the Twin Cities," by Michael J. Fay.   http://www.donaldrosssociety.org .

There has been some dispute about Park’s involvement with Minneapolis Golf Club.  According to the club’s 2005 master restoration plan, engineering records substantiate Park’s involvement.  
« Last Edit: November 07, 2005, 09:54:07 AM by Jason Topp »

Jason Topp

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Jason Topp's Oak Ridge CC is posted...
« Reply #11 on: November 09, 2005, 12:04:31 PM »
Since I took about a zillion pictures and the only people that are likely to be interested in them are on this site, I thought I would post some that did not make it into the article that I like:

Greens:

1 Green from 18 Tee




Approach to short par five fifth


12 Green from 18 Tee:


13 Green Looking Back



14 Green from Left




Fairway contours

8 Tee



8 looking back from right side of green



12 - Middle of fairway



14 tee - par five - you want to hit it left near the bunker unless you can carry the ridge and get a forward kick to allow one to reach the green in two.



18 looking back




Dan Kelly

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Jason Topp's Oak Ridge CC is posted...
« Reply #12 on: November 09, 2005, 12:23:44 PM »
Funny how photos can mislead.

My views of Oak Ridge, to date, have been limited to the fine-looking short par-4 No. 10,
at the east edge of the property, and the two below, at the northwest corner
of the property -- views upon which I gaze at least twice a day,
on my way to work and on the way home.

This one ...

13 Green Looking Back



... looks (to me) to feature nicely rolling, but rather gently rolling, land.
It is, in fact, quite dramatically rolling -- reminiscent of a stormy sea.
Great, heaving stuff.

And this one ...
14 tee - par five - you want to hit it left near the bunker unless
you can carry the ridge and get a forward kick to allow one to reach the green in two.



... looks tree-choked. Claustrophobically tight.
It isn't. There's more than plenty of room out there.
"There's no money in doing less." -- Joe Hancock, 11/25/2010
"Rankings are silly and subjective..." -- Tom Doak, 3/12/2016

Jason Topp

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Jason Topp's Oak Ridge CC is posted...
« Reply #13 on: November 09, 2005, 12:53:36 PM »
Dan:

I agree.  I found it really surprising how much you can change the perspective on a hole by cropping a picture differently.

This is the same picture of 14 tee: