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TEPaul

The offset fairway
« on: November 07, 2005, 10:07:34 PM »
Seems to me something that's rarely mentioned in golf architecture is the basic "off-set" fairway--eg a fairway that's axis is set at a diagonal to the teeing ground.

I've seen lots of fairways that are dead on-line with the tees that utilize bunkering or whatever (diagonal bunker line) to create an off-set or a situation where the golfer can drive over as much as he dares.

Just think of some of the great holes in the world that only use a basic fairway "axis" that's off-set to the tee, even sometimes at about a 45% angle. I always think of the basic diagonal utilizing bunkering or whatever but the off-set axis fairway seemed to be the most basic and effective of all.

1. Shinnecock's #1
2. NGLA's #1
3. Mid Ocean's #5
4. Shinnecock's #13 & #14
5. About half the holes at Cypress!


Tom_Doak

  • Karma: +3/-1
Re:The offset fairway
« Reply #1 on: November 07, 2005, 10:51:42 PM »
Tom:

That's also true of nearly every golf hole Pete Dye ever built.  Everyone notices the arc or curve, but if you draw a centerline to the landing area you'll see that every fairway starts about ten degrees out to the left or right of that line.

Strangely enough, though, it is hard to make it happen that way in the field.  There is a "centerline" of play on the plans that is staked on the ground every 100 feet or so, and the clearing is done roughly parallel with that line.  It's hard to go back and take the centerline symmetry out of that after the fact.  My guess is we could do it more often if we drew our centerlines from one of the forward tees and then just offset the back tees from that line and cleared what was needed for them after the rest was done.

« Last Edit: November 07, 2005, 10:55:46 PM by Tom_Doak »

Craig Disher

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:The offset fairway
« Reply #2 on: November 07, 2005, 10:52:51 PM »
Tom, I have to mention the original - Littlestone's #11.  ;)

It's a feature that works well with a good breeze. The 11th could easily have been a straight-away hole bordered on the left by a ditch. Purves had the brilliant idea to pull the tee to the left side of the ditch and angle it towards the mid-point in the fairway.

James Bennett

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:The offset fairway
« Reply #3 on: November 07, 2005, 11:44:19 PM »
The 10 degree offset was also a favourite of a guy called sam Berriman in Australia.  I believe Cranbourne is one of his designs that exhibit this feature (I think he also designed Horsham, one of the best inland, low-rainfall, country town/small city courses of south-east Australia).  Cranbourne is a pleasant members' club well south of Melbourne.

A typical tee-placement at Cranbourne is either aligned with the left edge or right edge of fairway, rewarding the player that can 'work' the ball a little.  Not quite as exterme as TEPaul's example of the angled fairway.  The Cranbourne example works on a tree-lined course because their fairways generally resemble tree-lined boulevards rather than tree-lined avenues.

James B
« Last Edit: November 07, 2005, 11:44:45 PM by James Bennett »
Bob; its impossible to explain some of the clutter that gets recalled from the attic between my ears. .  (SL Solow)

Mike Benham

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:The offset fairway
« Reply #4 on: November 08, 2005, 12:34:05 AM »
Seems to me something that's rarely mentioned in golf architecture is the basic "off-set" fairway--eg a fairway that's axis is set at a diagonal to the teeing ground.

I've seen lots of fairways that are dead on-line with the tees that utilize bunkering or whatever (diagonal bunker line) to create an off-set or a situation where the golfer can drive over as much as he dares.

Is this another "chicken or egg" thing?  

Point being, from a design/construction standpoint, is the fairway or the tee box that is offset?

Does the design and build of the fairway come first, and then the orientation of the tee box?
"... and I liked the guy ..."

Philip Spogard

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:The offset fairway
« Reply #5 on: November 08, 2005, 03:14:27 AM »
Mike

"Is this another "chicken or egg" thing?  

Point being, from a design/construction standpoint, is the fairway or the tee box that is offset?

Does the design and build of the fairway come first, and then the orientation of the tee box?"

I would say that it is the fairway that is offset. Think of a "straight" par 4 where you actually are aiming straight at the distant green. It would only make sense that an offset fairway in that case would be the one that crosses the obvious (straight) line of play - and thereby be the offset "factor".

I think offset backtees are a good way of making more difficult challenges for the better player - making him bend the shot in the air instead of the straight shot from the regular tee.

It also somewhat provides for a more heroic shot.

paul cowley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:The offset fairway
« Reply #6 on: November 08, 2005, 03:53:39 AM »
'....great Tom, how are we going to be able to write the book if you keep giving away the chapters?....but anyway, seeing as we are on chapter X, 'Curves of Charm'.....yes, the offset fairway is most easy to visualize if one thinks in strategic curves and arcs as opposed to straight lines...it is only then  that the tees, features and all the elements of the strategic storyline become more apparent and usefull....the greater the curve, the bigger the offset and the longer the trail that starts from the back tee, skipping forward past the other tees...all along the way untill we meet the fairway cut and the future surprises that await ahead..... all through the green.
...can't you almost smell the newly cut grass?  
« Last Edit: November 08, 2005, 03:56:33 AM by paul cowley »
paul cowley...golf course architect/asgca

BCrosby

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:The offset fairway
« Reply #7 on: November 08, 2005, 06:52:20 AM »
I too like the feature.

C&C use it a lot at Sand Hills and Cuscowilla.

It's one of those features that add interest without adding construction or maintenance expense. I don't know why it isn't used more often.

Bob

Bill Gayne

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:The offset fairway
« Reply #8 on: November 08, 2005, 09:06:29 AM »
I think this is the major reason why Portrush is such a difficult driving test and one of the reasons it's a great golf course.

Tiger_Bernhardt

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:The offset fairway
« Reply #9 on: November 08, 2005, 09:19:42 AM »
I too like the feature and find it along with angles for different tee boxes as great features to add to or create strategy.

Jeff_Mingay

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:The offset fairway
« Reply #10 on: November 08, 2005, 09:24:50 AM »
I love this feature.

The 1st hole at Sand Hills is an excellent example, where the fairway lies at an offset, diagonal to the tee. Not only does it set-up driving options, but it's aesthetically brilliant.

The 5th (from a relatively new back tee, especially) and 16th fairways at Sand Hills lie at similar angles, too.  

Also see the 15th hole at Blackhawk GC in Edmonton ;D
« Last Edit: November 08, 2005, 09:26:06 AM by Jeff_Mingay »
jeffmingay.com

mike_malone

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:The offset fairway
« Reply #11 on: November 08, 2005, 09:29:10 AM »
 I think they are particularly cool when combined with an elevated tee.
AKA Mayday

A.G._Crockett

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:The offset fairway
« Reply #12 on: November 08, 2005, 09:37:26 AM »
Always a great pleasure to come to an offset tee in which you get to indulge the all of the swing flaws your normally fight, and can go ahead and hit a huge hook or cut.

Unfortunately, the "wrong" offset induces blind panic for the same reasons.  

I think these make great back tees, much moreso than just extra distance.
"Golf...is usually played with the outward appearance of great dignity.  It is, nevertheless, a game of considerable passion, either of the explosive type, or that which burns inwardly and sears the soul."      Bobby Jones

wsmorrison

Re:The offset fairway
« Reply #13 on: November 08, 2005, 09:40:31 AM »
Mike,

Why do you think they are particularly cool combined with an elevated tee?  And how does this setup differ from an offset fairway with a level tee given visibility of the level fairway?

Are all elevated tees particularly cool?  If not, why do they differ from those with offset fairways?  

The 1st at Shinnecock Hills is an awesome opening tee shot.  It is difficult to judge which line to take because its hard to know how you're swinging (even if well on the practice tee, there's some nerves standing on the first at SHGC) and how the wind will affect the angle taken.  There is a temptation to bite off a bit more than you can.  Too conservative an approach means going through the fairway as the far contour line comes into play.  The 14th is another outstanding offset fairway among others at Shinnecock Hills (4, 6, 8, 13 and 18).

The 5th at Cascades is a long par 5 with interrupted fairways both of which are offset to the line of play.  The first fairway is visible, Tom Paul came up with the idea of a "false front" for the second fairway bringing it over the hill for visibility.  Brilliant!
« Last Edit: November 08, 2005, 09:54:27 AM by Wayne Morrison »

mike_malone

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:The offset fairway
« Reply #14 on: November 08, 2005, 09:49:18 AM »
 Since a ball is in the air for a longer time  from an elevated tee distance control is more difficult . When one is just hitting to a straightaway fairway like #11 at Rolling Green it is not a problem , but a few of those Shinnecock tees are elevated  with the fairway offset. This adds a thrill to the shot. I want to make #15 at Rolling Green more like these Shinnecock holes by continuing to open up the right side.
AKA Mayday

Mike Hendren

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:The offset fairway
« Reply #15 on: November 08, 2005, 09:52:25 AM »
Wayne,

Marathon immediately came to my mind as well.  Excellent use of odd topography, though a little pedestrian at the green end.  I disagree with Tom Paul's idea, however, as the awkward second shot, totally devoid of any aiming reference, is the hole's best feature/defense.  

Mike
Two Corinthians walk into a bar ....

TEPaul

Re:The offset fairway
« Reply #16 on: November 08, 2005, 10:16:14 AM »
Mike Benham said:

"Is this another "chicken or egg" thing?  
Point being, from a design/construction standpoint, is the fairway or the tee box that is offset?
Does the design and build of the fairway come first, and then the orientation of the tee box?"

Mike:

I don't think it matters which way one described it. As Tom Doak seemed to be trying to say, any of the tees are probably pointing at the LZ (for that tee) which essentially is a point. It's just that the basic parallel lines of the axis of the fairway seem off-set to the line from any tee to its LZ, and obviously that creates an angle or a diagonal.

Of all the fairways like this that immediately come to my mind it seems the 15th at Rustic Canyon is the one that's at the greatest angle. When first out there looking at that landform and the proposed tee placements (before the course was built) it looked to me to be pretty scary for the various levels of golfers in what line they needed to reasonably take. It was very deceptive looking in length but GeoffShac kept assuring me that the actual distances probaly weren't what they appeared to be. I thought it was a beautiful set-up but seemingly pretty scary looking.

Also just think in your experiences seeing a golfer, even you, coming to a hole like that and hitting a good drive in a direction that seemed resonable but not come anywhere near carrying at that angle. That's what makes so much of golf architecture interesting, so much of it is about angles, angles, angles!

Bogey Hendren said:

"I disagree with Tom Paul's idea, however, as the awkward second shot, totally devoid of any aiming reference, is the hole's best feature/defense."

Bogey:

Look at that hole this way---that the present off-set fairway's interest is that awkward second shot that's blind and devoid of any aiming point. That is a pretty strong feature and somewhat of a maddening one, particularly to the long baller. How interesting is it for him to have to play that hole that way every time? The point of my recommendation by bringing down a "false front" on that upper fairway is to tempt him into trying to reach it by getting it "JUST" in his range and making it visible. From the present tip tees that may be a bit out of reach for even the long baller, particularly since he can't see it and consequently may not be aware where it starts.

Give him the option to really hit one huge and get up to that upper fairway off the tee. What would his reward be if he could pull that off? Obviously his reward would be a chance to go at that green from a shorter distance and some height. The lower fairway for a whole lot of obvious reasons doesn't exactly offer that temptation, and so the hole the way it is plays pretty one dimensionally.

I say that left fairway ought to end around 280 and the upper fairway should begin about 260-270 (because of its height effectively about 280) and then the options for the long baller would be brought into a very interesting and tempting "balance" or "equilibrium" with a drive to the end of the lower fairway. If you can get a good golfer to stand on that tee thinking "what to do?, what to do?" that makes any hole better and more interesting than merely hitting it down the left fairway and then laying it up blind over the hill day after day.

Don't forget good architecture is often about "options, options, options" and if they are in balance or equilibrium with each other because they're both functional (even if one is a tempting "stretch" off the tee) that's about as good as it can get.

That hole's back tee may need to be shortened just a tad to make the "go" option on that long par 5 a bit more doable than it is now at 575 and probably effectively a bit longer than that due to its topography.  
« Last Edit: November 08, 2005, 11:03:16 AM by TEPaul »

BCrosby

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:The offset fairway
« Reply #17 on: November 08, 2005, 10:57:37 AM »
Other good offset fairways are the 17th at TOC, the 18th at Seminole (is that Dick Wilson or Ross?), 5th at Mid-O and the 14th and 15th at Merion.

As I recall, there are drawings of courses by Devereux Emmett, Travis and Max Behr in Dan Wexler's books where ample use of the feature was made.  

I'm having trouble imagining terrains where they wouldn't work well.

Bob
« Last Edit: November 08, 2005, 10:59:03 AM by BCrosby »

wsmorrison

Re:The offset fairway
« Reply #18 on: November 08, 2005, 11:09:52 AM »
Bob,

The 6th and 8th at Merion are also excellent offset fairways.  It sure is difficult to realize the offset nature on 8 standing on the tee.  It seems counter-intuitive to aim over the left side of the right bunker away from the green.

Doug Braunsdorf

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:The offset fairway
« Reply #19 on: November 08, 2005, 12:36:21 PM »
Just a few others that came to mind;

In the example of slightly elevated tees, Beechtree #10--the tee basically points straight ahead, whereas the fairway runs off and to the right.  

In the example of level teeing ground, Bethpage Black #7.  

"Never approach a bull from the front, a horse from the rear, or a fool from any direction."

Kyle Harris

Re:The offset fairway
« Reply #20 on: November 08, 2005, 12:41:54 PM »
First Hole, Schuylkill Country Club


Though these tees point down the middle of the old fairway, the tree down the left side were planted due to the driving range being added.

Now the tees are offset (but parallel) to the major axis of the fairway.

The tee shot on 16 at Lulu has a similar effect.

Doug Braunsdorf

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:The offset fairway
« Reply #21 on: November 08, 2005, 12:44:16 PM »
Kyle,

Would you say the optimal line for the tee shot is between the two small trees (left one is grayish-purple, right one is green) just right of center?  
"Never approach a bull from the front, a horse from the rear, or a fool from any direction."

Kyle Harris

Re:The offset fairway
« Reply #22 on: November 08, 2005, 12:48:02 PM »
Yes, as long as the ball is hit with a hint of draw. The green is just to the right of the tree line and to the left of the pink tree.

Mike Benham

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:The offset fairway
« Reply #23 on: November 08, 2005, 12:52:17 PM »
Tom -

I am clear on the concept,  I was just inquiring how they come about in the design/build of the golf hole.  

Does the hole evolve (like Kyle's example) or is drawn on the routing plan, or does it happen when the shapers are building the tee box ...

Mike
"... and I liked the guy ..."

Jamie_Duffner

Re:The offset fairway
« Reply #24 on: November 08, 2005, 01:44:30 PM »
This is quite evident at Bethpage Black and one of the course's best attributes.

2 - the real landing area is offset.
5 - one of the better offset fairways you'll ever see.
9 - another right to left offset.
11 - a very difficult fairway to find.  As many times as I've played this hole, the tee shot still gets me and I always feel awkward trying to align myself.
16 - another right to left offset fairway.

The black is such a demanding driving course not just due to length (or USGA setup!), but the awkwardness of aligning yourself properly to fit the tee shot into the fairway from diagonal lines of play.