The 'Other' side of Fife...

[Marty Bonnar]

Tom,
damn you for being so sensible. Could you define the ground rules a tad more clearly, please?

This hypothetical(!) invite to CPC. Have I already committed to playing with my buds? Is there free beer involved? Do they know I've got the Belhaven Best in the Golf Bag? Does one of them have connections at Cohiba? Are they good enough buds to mind me blowing them off (can I say that on a family website?) for CPC?

BTW, I've seen PG Muni (on Google Earth) and it looks like a hoot (esp. for lil' ole' slicer, moi!)

So many considerations...of course, I've got it! I play CPC early AM, THEN zip around to PGM! QED!
 
FBD.

[THuckaby2]

Gents:

It was most definitely a trick question, and an unfair one as well.  But I asked it only to illustrate that these choices are never as cut and dried as some like to portray them.

BTW, you're talking to a guy who not too long ago gave up a comped solo round at the very private Bel Air CC, so that he could play a par three course with his Dad and brother in law.  So don't be so sure where I stand on this.

 

[Brent Hutto]

Say you are a Scot coming to our lovely area for one time, maybe never ever to return.  One never knows how life goes.  Then say you are offered ONE SPOT in a group at Cypress Point, with three unknowns.

The alternative is a round at PG Muni with three friends from this site.

What do you do?

Now there are layers and layers to this particular onion, Huck. If we're talking about "three friends from this site" then we're talking three guys who would understand if you skipped out on being the best man at their wedding to play a Cypress Point. So in a way, it would be an insult to your GCA friends to choose schmoozing with them vs. a round over the course that's heaven on earth (especially on a sunny day with a bit of a breeze).

Conversely, what if you were supposed to meet three of your college buddies from back home at PG Muni? And maybe that's your only chance in the forseeable future to play with that particular foursome. At least now we have a geniune tough decision because if you skip out on your buds in their eyes it will be "just to go play some fancy private course up the coast".

[THuckaby2]

Brent:

As I say, it wasn't intended to be a fair question.  It also really wasn't intended to have any one answer, as you are so correct there are so many different ways this could go.

I just asked it, again, to illustrate that these choices are never easy.  One ought never to say it has to go one way or the other.

TH

[Darren_Kilfara]

Rich, I went to Painswick partly for the company and fraternity, partly because it worked out for me with my schedule at the time - and partly because I'd seen pictures and heard stories about the course itself. It is not a "C" course in my estimation; it is abundantly quirky and interesting. I highly doubt I would have driven 400 miles to play Aberdour...and I say that having enjoyed a windy and rainy day with you there, and having appreciated the good holes which the course does have.

Everything is relative. Brian, re: the Stonehaven quote you've pulled from my book, I would absolutely stand by that statement - compared with 50-75 other courses in Scotland, the course has precious little architectural merit, and in absolute terms it has no links atmosphere. Does that mean playing the course cannot be an interesting experience, or that the cliffside scenery isn't something to behold (on a non-foggy day)? Absolutely not. Most of us can have fun at just about any golf course, and for sheer fun Stonehaven has much to recommend it for someone who doesn't mind playing short courses with seven par 3s. But let's not kid ourselves to say that courses like Stonehaven or the other courses listed in the Fife offer should be visited by the normal American golfing tourist - life is too short, as are most Scottish vacations, and the overall package at other courses in tiers A and B (of which there are SO many, which is the real point...it's not like you have to be all that choosy) in Scotland is usually significantly better than at the tier C courses.

And while some tier A Scottish courses can be snooty or overpriced, most tier B courses can and should include the fraternity which FBD is talking about. Given the choice between spending £20 at Aberdour and spending £42 at Lundin Links, I think 98% of all American golfing tourists going to Fife should spend the extra money and see the better golf course. Indeed, at least 90% of them are probably going to feel more enriched and/or excited by going to St. Andrews instead of Lundin Links and spending £100+ to play the Old Course - and even at St. Andrews, if you go as a single and want to play with some local golfers, there's STILL a fair chance that you can get the "Scottish experience" and local colour you might crave. All of this talk as though it's an either/or proposition - play with crafty Scots or play a good golf course, but not both - is well wide of the mark.

Cheers,
Darren

[THuckaby2]

All of this talk as though it's an either/or proposition - play with crafty Scots or play a good golf course, but not both - is well wide of the mark.

Cheers,
Darren

Darren - just to clarify - I never meant to say it's an either/or.  I would say though that one has a better CHANCE of playing with crafty Scots - ie getting the "local" experience - at the C courses as opposed to the A, simply because you will likely be the only visitor there, as opposed to the many at the As.  But that being said, if said experience is one's top priority, it can happen at A, B or C.

As for the rest, you make perfect sense to me.  But again, there's really no "wrong" way to do this.

TH

[Darren_Kilfara]

Tom, YOU never suggested it was an either/or decision, but I think several others have hinted that it is. I would disagree with you, though, when you say that there is no wrong way to do a trip to Scotland - maybe that's true for some people such as yourself, but the vast majority of American golfing tourists would be hugely disappointed to play any C-caliber golf courses, never mind a whole slew of them on one trip. They would be much better advised to play tier A and B courses exclusively.

Cheers,
Darren

[THuckaby2]

Darren - very well.  I guess I'm gonna pull a semantic it depends on how you define "wrong".  By that I mean, sure nothing but C's would leave damn near all tourists wanting the more and greater - but I doubt they'd have a BAD time.  Fun could still be had.  Thus to me it's not "wrong."

TH

[Sean_A]

Darren

I don't know.  It is a fine line between what is 2nd or 3rd tier or whatever.  The main thing is I want to have fun.  

I really enjoyed places like Brora, Stonehaven, Fortrose and Gullane #3.  I have been a bit disappointed (meaning I am not looking to play these courses again) with Tain, Crail, Glasgow Gailes, The Glen and Leven.  

I won't tell you that any of these lesser courses mentioned above are great or that they are worth crossing an ocean to play, but I could say the same for several big guns as well.  A load of these A list courses leave me underwhelmed.  Troon, Carnoustie, Gullane #1 and Turnberry are a few.  

In truth, there are not that many courses in Scotland that warrant crossing an ocean to play.  To be sure there are 10, perhaps as many as 20 if one is feeling generous.  This isn't the entire point though.  One comes to Scotland mostly to be in Scotland.  I wouldn't call the golf secondary, but it is only a half the reason people travel to Scotland.   This was made quite clear to me by a few people on the Bandon thread.  Some East coasters felt it was a better option to cross an ocean than to go play arguably the best public golf complex on the planet.  These people are looking for a some extra kick that isn't available at Bandon.  I suspect that extra kick is a bit different for everybody.

Once a guy plays a few courses off the A list, how else is he going to get that kick?  I suggest the likes of Brora (or whatever your bag is), which on its own is not a reason for me to travel more than a few hours, but as part of the bigger picture, can provide that certain something which creates lifetime memories.  

But hey, this is just my take on it.  I personally don't like the idea of five days of top notch golf.  This kind of thing just doesn't float my boat.  Give me a sleeper or two.  Eventually I will find a cracker.  

Ciao

Sean

[ForkaB]

Darren

I agree fully regarding Lundin.  @£42 it is a real bargain.  Even better is the fact that they still offer weekly tickets at £180.  In fact, I'd go as far as to say that many true GCA afficionados would do far better ensconcing themselves at Lundin for a week and learning from that course than playing any other 7 courses in Scotland, serially.

To me its all about intensive rather than extensive experiences.  I think both are valuable, but one learns much more from the former than the latter--regardless (within limits) of the "quality" of the courses they are playing.  And probably has much more fun, too.........

[Darren_Kilfara]

Darren

I agree fully regarding Lundin.  @£42 it is a real bargain.  Even better is the fact that they still offer weekly tickets at £180.  In fact, I'd go as far as to say that many true GCA afficionados would do far better ensconcing themselves at Lundin for a week and learning from that course than playing any other 7 courses in Scotland, serially.

To me its all about intensive rather than extensive experiences.  I think both are valuable, but one learns much more from the former than the latter--regardless (within limits) of the "quality" of the courses they are playing.  And probably has much more fun, too.........

Now THIS is a sentiment with which I fully agree! In fact, I think any serious Scottish golfing tourist should do something like this at least once in his or her life - spend a week in one place, playing only one course (or, if you must maybe two). You'll meet more people, likely have more interesting experiences, see how different wind and weather conditions affect the course, and get to know the architectural intricacies of the course very well. When I lived in London I came up on several occasions for a week at Machrihanish (back when they had a similar weekly pass for c. £180-200, although I don't know if the club still offers this deal), and it was the sort of experience which wound up leading me to live in Campbeltown for a year-and-a-half.

Cheers,
Darren

[Brent Hutto]

To me its all about intensive rather than extensive experiences.  I think both are valuable, but one learns much more from the former than the latter--regardless (within limits) of the "quality" of the courses they are playing.  And probably has much more fun, too.........

Rich,

That's pretty much what I want to do at Royal Dornoch, spend seven or eight days there and play 'most every day at RDGC with some side trips to Brora, Golspie, etc. Since that's a premium-priced course with no day tickets or weekly tickets it's an expensive dream that now looks like it will have to be put off for a year or two.

I'm never going to be in a position to travel across the ocean a couple times a year and work my way through dozens of links courses. But there's no reason not to have one or two courses over there with which I'm very familiar.

[THuckaby2]

Ah, now we get down to the real question.  I think we're in agreement about this, but let's see.

One week at Lundin v. the following, spread over the same week:

St. Andrews Old and New
Carnoustie
Muirfield
N. Berwick
Gullane #1, #2

Yes, one would learn a lot about Lundin if he spent the entire time there.  And he might have a lot of fun, IF he meets some members who are there frequently during the week (far from a given, btw).  He'd come home knowing a LOT about Lundin and would be the US expert on it.

But at some point he'd slap his head and say "god dammit I could have played ____________."  He'd have serious course regret.

One caveat: I am talking about a real-world travelling golfer.  I'd agree that the one week at Lundin might be a better idea for a "true GCA aficionado."  Well said.  But who the hell is that?  Not me, that's for sure.  And not anyone else I know outside of the nutcases in this forum.

 

For real world golfers, I have to believe you see all the great courses you care to FIRST, then you do this intensive week.   I'd agree with Darren that it is something the tourist should do once in his life.  Just not until he's seen all the courses he wants to see, that's all.  

TH

ps to Brent - as we discussed off-line, that week at Dornoch would be fantastic, if expensive.  But man you need to see a few other courses first.  Man does not live by Dornoch alone, no matter how great any book is (and it is a great book)!

[Mickey Boland]

Interesting to see all of these comments, because I am in the midst of my planning for Scotland in '06.  Our "rota" so far includes Carnoustie, Lundin Links, Crail, Royal Dornoch, Brora, Tain and Nairn.  My group wanted a good combination of "A" and "B" courses.  We were unsuccessful in our bid for an advance reservation on TOC, but will go there and ballot anyway, dropping Lundin Links or Crail if necessary.  This site, and some of the PM's I've received, have gone a long way towards helping us pick courses.

But the one point made earlier is my group's key.  Wherever we play, it's going to be fun because of the group.  Great GCA, great history, Scottish flavor and everything else are just lagniappe.    

[THuckaby2]

Mickey - I made a similar trip a few years ago - 12 great friends from college, a little longer, less ground covered - but hell we could have played golf at Glasgow freakin' airport and had fun.  Oh yes, all the rest was lagniappe for sure.

I love that word.

In any case, you are sure going to cover some ground.... is there no thought to playing Cruden Bay, just to break up the drive from St. Andrews area to Nairn?  That is a long haul....

Good plan re TOC also.  Work with the hotels.  Depending on how many you have, ballot should work out.  Might be tough for a large group, but hell, those who make it play, those who don't go to Lundin/Crail.  And even if you don't actually play TOC, well you can definitely check it out, walk it, etc.

You are going to have an absolute blast.

TH

[Mickey Boland]

Thanks for the good words, Tom.  We've got 9 months to go and counting.  4 of us going.  We have considered breaking up into twosomes to ballot TOC, but we would sure like to all play together.  We don't arrive until Sunday, but our host in St. Andrews will put us on the ballot on Saturday for Monday's play.  

We're playing Carnoustie on Sunday, and balloting for TOC on Monday, Tuesday and Wednesday.  Wednesday is actually a scheduled travel day to Dornoch, playing somewhere either on the way, or in the Highlands once we get up there, maybe Boat of Garten.  That's assuming we don't get on TOC on that day.  We're staying in Dornoch for a few days also.

[THuckaby2]

Mickey - that sounds like one hell of a great trip.  With 4 of you, the ballot ought to work - it just gets problematic with more than that.  As for all 4 or 2v2, ask the hotel when you get there (or if you book ahead).  They can likely help you a lot.  That is a very tough call though.  Hell yes you want to play together, but if you go 2 & 2, there's a fighting chance you get paired with people who add to the experience (like a local).  Of course there's also a fighting chance you get paired with people who detract... But nothing can take away that much from the experience of playing TOC, so however it works it will be great.  And if it doesn't, well chalk it up to karma/golf gods/kismet and have a blast at Lundin and Crail.

One thing you might want to look into is Cruden Bay.  It is quite a long haul up to Dornoch, and Cruden Bay is about half-way up.  It's also a VERY VERY fun golf course.

TH

[Dan King]

When I first went to Scotland I went with three friends from home (I think it was 100-internet years ago.) We essentially took our American game and moves it across the world. We had scheduled many  of the Open and better known courses. Often times in our travels for a couple weeks we saw the exact same groups of golfers out on the courses with us.

After a couple weeks my friends left and I stayed for another few weeks. I had no plans, no places to stay. I just had a rental car and I travelled all over the island, finding games along the way.

I had much more find on the second part of the trip than the first. Since then, when I travel to Scotland or Ireland I have almost no plans and nobody travelling with me from America (Unless someday Slag decides to go back.)

I've found too often when playing what you guys call the A courses, I'll end up playing with a guy from Texas, a guy from Illinois and a guy from Florida. I could just as easily have met them by playing any of a number of courses in the Bay Area.

If I play the local, lesser known courses, I'll be paired up and meet locals.

It sort of depends on why you go to Scotland or Ireland. I see plenty of tourists who go there to collect bag tags, put another notch on their top-100 golf course résumé and move on to the next conquest. They'll play golf there, collect the yardage books, scorecards, ball markers and/or bag tags, eat egg McMuffin for breakfast at Macdonalds, find the places with cold Budweiser and demand more ice in their Jack Daniels and Coke.

I travel to discover a different culture foreign to my own. I'll eat at the little hole in the wall, try any food unique to their culture or region (excluding blood puddin',) hopefully hang around with locals at the pubs, drink the local Scotch or Irish and drink the Belhaven Best at room temperature.My chances are better of experiencing Scotland if I play at the courses off the tourists' beaten path.

Now I'll play a dozen or so lesser known course for every "A" course. I still go back to the St. Andrews, Troon or Muirfield, but they really aren't at the heart of my trip.

Dan King

The playing fields of the game evolved into what are today called golf courses. The earliest of these playing fields were found on Scottish linksland. The location of linksland, often publicly owned, in a northern latitude where summer daylight hours extended from 3 a.m. to 11 p.m. made it possible for persons other than those of a leisure class to use them. Thus, golf established an early democratic tradition in Scotland.
 --Goeffrey S. Cornish and Ronald E. Whitten

[THuckaby2]

Well Dan, obviously you are the poster-tourist for having unlimited time.  Your take is rather clouded by that, don't you think?

Of course if we all had a full summer to stay over there like you did, we'd treat it like you - I remain completely envious of your trip.

But now, you've seen all you wanted to see.  Of course when or if you go back now, you go to different places.  That's just logical.

In any case, it was from your experience that I derived my take that one has a much better chance at meeting locals at B and C courses rather than A.  I found that a bit in my own experience as well.

One more thing:  don't look too down on a group of American golfers going from great course to great course.  You and others turn up your nose at that often in here.  I'm here to say that that can be great fun also.  Who wouldn't want to play great courses with great friends?  So while that might not be the best way to immerse oneself in a foreign culture, well... that also might not be the sole and only goal of a trip. And the main thing is unless one is COMPLETELY closed-minded, cultural soak-up will occur even in this scenario.

Like I say, no wrong way to do Scotland.

But the question here is not what to do if one has unlimited time - hell anyone with a brain would treat that like you did.  The question is what to do in the more real situation where time and funds are limited?

Rather tough to just jaunt around with no plans in that scenario, don't you think?  Also rather tough to give up perhaps one's sole and only chance to play a truly great course he's dreamed about his whole golf life.

But again, to each his own.  And I know you are just espousing what YOU would do.  But you wouldn't post it if you didn't want to somehow influence others, would you?

 

[Mike Hendren]

After a couple weeks my friends left and I stayed for another few weeks. I had no plans, no places to stay. I just had a rental car and I travelled all over the island, finding games along the way.

Dan,

I'm convinced that's the way to go.  I went solo without a tee time.  Priceless.

In a few summers my folks packed me off the camp.
Me and my cousin Baxter in our pup tent with a lamp.
In a few days Baxter went home and left me by myself.
I knew that I'd stay, it was better that way
And I could get along without any help.
Life (and Scotland) is just a tire-swing.
-Jimmy Buffett

[THuckaby2]

Mike:

That is a neat way to go.  But have you done any other way?  And come on, I know you had SOME plans, being a part of them.  You ole fibber, you....    And of course that's the way to go if one has a full summer like Dan did.  But for one week, never knowing if you'll ever get back?  I remain unconvinced.

I've done both.  Well, not completely solo - I don't have the balls for that and/or have too many friends who want to join me.  But I've gone very-planned and no-planned, seen mostly A courses but also had quite a bit of fun at a few Cs.  That's why I keep repeating there's no wrong way to do Scotland.

 

[Darren_Kilfara]

I've found too often when playing what you guys call the A courses, I'll end up playing with a guy from Texas, a guy from Illinois and a guy from Florida. I could just as easily have met them by playing any of a number of courses in the Bay Area.

I've found too often that I've been paired with such a group of people and turned my nose up at the thought, automatically prejudicing myself against the experience I might have and thereby enjoying myself less (while not representing myself well or adding value to the experience for my countrymen as much as I could). Americans are people too, you know, even when they're not already your friends! Why not take that sort of experience to compare notes, maybe even do a little bit of educating about the delights of Scottish golf and good architecture?

Cheers,
Darren

[THuckaby2]

Darren:

Another very good point.  On a great trip over there with two college buds, we were paired with an obvious North American on the first tee of our first round (Turnberry) and each of us immediately kinda shuddered... turned out he was a GREAT guy - Canadian travelling solo - and we ended up shlepping him along with us for a lot of the trip.  One never knows what might happen in these pairings.

TH

[Mickey Boland]

One thing you might want to look into is Cruden Bay.  It is quite a long haul up to Dornoch, and Cruden Bay is about half-way up.  It's also a VERY VERY fun golf course.

TH

Tom,

We did consider Cruden Bay, but going through there from St. Andrews to Dornoch is like driving around a circle rather than cutting straight across.  Just looked like too much for one day.  We all decided that we would save Cruden Bay for the next trip.

[Tiger_Bernhardt]

Tom, I play 36 that day. lol Martin I have not played very many courses in the UK that are not so called big named courses. However, I would likely enjoy them as much as I do the bigger named ones. One thing I have gained from playing in the UK is I like playing with the locals much more than friends I bring with me on these trips. I enjoy the approach to the game I find there much more than my buddies USA attitude. The dockers commercial attitude many USA travelers have seem to have trouble being left behind on the way across the pond.