[Patrick_Mucci]

With the ability to move dirt easily today, why don't we see more spines brought into play ?

A quick glimpse at NGLA reveals spines gallore.

In the fairways, on the greens and in the rough.

These features serve to help or harm the golfer depending upon his use of them, or his ability to recognize them and to execute his intent.

Some like TEPaul have refered to their benefit as "Turbo boosts" (NGLA 5th hole, second shot).

Where the golfer recognizes them he can benefit from their use.  Where the golfer doesn't recognize them he is penalized for his ignorance.

Why don't more courses employ them ?

Don't they also assist with surface or sheet drainage ?

What holes on what courses present dramatic spines ?

[TEPaul]

Excellent thread topic Pat.

Spines or ridges or basically anything that creates convex angles in play are frankly more interesting than their counterpart, concave angles, when concave angles are used architecturally to bring off-line balls back into play.

As firm and fast conditions increase both "through the green" and on the green the convex angle in play exponentially ups interest, excitement and challenge for obvious reasons.

Why are they not used more in architecture or modern architecture? Probably because too many of the modern Wuss architects think it's the right thing to do to design to cater to and assist the lowest common denominator---eg the poor player.

I'm certain this is a large part of what the whole idea of that modern architectural abomination---parallel mounding, was all about.

And as you mentioned they help with sheet drainage. And as Max Behr stressed the convex angle is simply more structurally durable.

[Jason Topp]

Patrick:

I recently have thought that spines or ridgelines are probably the single feature that shows up most holes that I find particularly interesting.  To me it is an ideal feature because it provides significant reward without undue punishment.  A less favorable angle, a sidehill lie and a blind shot are all factors that one will work hard to avoid, but recovery is possible and the punishment on a poorer player is relatively light.  Most of the examples I know well would be unfamiliar to most, but here are a few:

16th hole at Waveland GC - Des Moines, IA.  A 465 yard par four with a high spot on the right side of a ridge that starts about 150 yards off the tee on the right side of the fairway and ends around 250 yards off the tee on the left side of the fairway.  Because of the length of the hole and a prevailing headwind, you want to be as aggressive as possible, but need to get to the top of that ridge.

5th, 8th, 13th, 14th, 18th fairways and many of the greens at Oak Ridge Country Club, some of which I am trying to hilight in my My Home Course profile which is still being finalized.  

Here is the 435 yard 18th looking backwards at a little valley that provides the interesting feature of the hole.  If the valley can be skirted by hugging the right side of the fairway (left on the picture), one gains 40-50 yards, a visible shot and a flat lie:



Some better known examples:

The tee shot on that par five on the back nine at Sand Hills where a drive close to the bunker on the left gives rise to the possibility of mortals reaching a 600 yard hole in 2.

The tee shot on 9 at Lahinch.  A great tee shot can get past the ridge.  Otherwise, one is better off playing for position on the blind second.

[RJ_Daley]

Jason, that is a fine photo, and when I looked at it, I was instantly put in mind of a few hole corridors on my home/home course here in GB, the Brown County GC, by Ed Lawrence Packard.  Low and behold, I looked up Waveland and sure enough it was originally a Bendelow and redone by ELP.

These sort of spines or play along ridges on angles are typical of many of ELP's work.  Of course Ross was known for that too and we see it at Pine Needles alot.  

If the spines are to be graded rather than used on natural occuring ridges, care must be taken not to make them look too artificial.  But, manufacturing them offers the chance to really place them just right, and if not overly done to a guady extreme, they can add some real excitement and anticipation to particularly tee shots.

[David_Madison]

Agreed that they add lots of interest.  Perhaps here's a reason that we don't see them, at least at greens sites, as much as we'd like - - On my home course they provide much of the challenge within the greens complexes. Most of our greens areas have humps or other elevated features extending from bunkers or the surrounding hilly terrain, and the greens look interesting and do a good job of naturally connecting the surrounds. At the same time, as built the ridgelines render huge portions of the greens uncuppable. At their worst a 6000 square foot greens ends up with three or four smallish cupping pods. At the 9 - 9.5 stimpmeter speed that the greens were designed for fifteen years ago maybe we'd get 3000 ft usable. At the 10.5 - 11 that the members want, it's much less, leading to the boredom of repetitive cupping and the damage from extensive wear and tear in those small areas. Bigger greens would solve it, but that wasn't what Nicklaus was doing with private courses back then.

[Andy Doyle]

The tee shot on 9 at Lahinch.  A great tee shot can get past the ridge.  Otherwise, one is better off playing for position on the blind second.

That's the one I immediately thought of:



AD

[Jason Topp]

Low and behold, I looked up Waveland and sure enough it was originally a Bendelow and redone by ELP.

Dick:

Just to clarify, the photo is the 18th from Oak Ridge and I supect the Waveland you looked up is in Chicago.  The Waveland in Des Moines is credited to a guy named Warren Dickenson and was built in the late 1890's but I have always wanted to research that further.  The original course routing shown in the clubhouse shows a 36 hole course over about a 160 - 200 acre property.  It has been redesigned at least twice.  Once to turn the 36 into 18 and once in the 50's or 60's to accomodate a freeeway.  As a kid, I always understood that it was designed by the same guy who did Wakonda, who I have since learned is William Langford.  If he did redesign the course at one point, nearly all of the greens were later ruined.  Most are simply ovals pushed up 2-3 feet from their surrounds.  Tee to green, I think it is an interesting layout.

Also - who is ELP?  I can only think of Emerson, Lake and Palmer, which I suspect is not right.

[TEPaul]

"The Waveland in Des Moines is credited to a guy named Warren Dickenson and was built in the late 1890's but I have always wanted to research that further.  The original course routing shown in the clubhouse shows a 36 hole course over about a 160 - 200 acre property."

Jason:

Wait a minute, are you say that club had a 36 hole golf club in the late 1890s? If so, I think that would definitely make that club the first 36 hole facility on America. I thought Merion was with the second course built in 1914.

[Kyle Harris]

Yes, yes yes a million time yes.

And what better place to start than copies of Tillie's original "Reef" design for the short Par 4, long par 3.

[Jason Topp]

Tom - I have not done any independent research other than to look at the map in the grill room.  It showed 36 holes and I cannot recall the date of the map, but I think it would have been around 1901.  The course opened sometime between 1894 to 1901 depending on the source you use.

The website is below if you want some contacts.  Unfortunately, I no longer know anyone there.

http://www.wavelandga.com/

[RJ_Daley]

Jason, I'm getting a bit confused.  In C&W, they list Waveland in Des Moines as original 9 by Bendelow in 1910.  The website says it was dedicated in 1901.  C&W has a Paul Coates (city civil engineer in Minn-ST Paul as remodeller adding 9 in 1937.  Then C&W lists ELP in the back of the book under courses built and remodelled by section, but not under ELP's bio section.  ELP is Ed Lawrence Packard.

But, your photo still looks like a nice course and very similar to the BCGC here.

[Jason Topp]

Guys:  

Thanks for the information.  Pretty amazing what people can come up with so quickly.  Because I grew up about 6 blocks away from Waveland, this is very interesting to me.

To add to the data points, I found this information on the Des Moines Golf and Country Club website:  www.dmgcc.org


In the fall of 1897 the first round of golf ever played in the city of Des Moines was played on a forty acre cow pasture just north of what is today's intersection at Ingersoll and Polk Boulevard.  That field was rented to the newly formed Des Moines Golf and Country Club by its owner, J.S. Polk.

by the early 1900's Des Moines was rapidly growing westward and Polk's land was more valuable if developed, so the club moved west and just south of what is today's Waveland Golf Course.  This larger piece of land was also leased - from the Gilcrest family.  The beautiful clubhouse stood at what is now 49th and Harwood Drive.

Two decades later, progress once again forced the club westward to what is now West Des Moines and to the Ashworth Estates area that today includes Dowling Catholic High School and Guide One Insurance.  Although fire destroyed the original clubhouse, it was rebuilt and the club continued to prosper.

By the late 1960's the Interstate 235 crosstown freeway cut through the heart of the club and once again it moved west - to the present location.  A young golf architect named Pete Dye was selected to design 2 eighteen hole golf courses, creating Des Moines only thirty-six hole golf and country club.  In 1970 all was complete with the official dedication of the new beautiful clubhouse.

[TEPaul]

David Moriarty said;

"Yes, SPINES are the answer.  To almost any question."

What a brilliant remark. I wonder if David Moriarty is going to show us how "spines" are the answer to the question of what to do about the "distance problem"!  

[paul cowley]

Hell Tom, I'll take a crack at that....you just build a 50' spine about 300 yds out or you could even build a 20 footer between the back and middle tees or you could do both if it is going to be a 'championship' venue....  I would also add one in front of the ladies championship tees but have it offset so the shorter hitters from the club tees won't have a blind shot!
....see, simple stuff really...you do this long enough and it gets easy.
but go ahead, ask me a tough one if you care to.

[TEPaul]

Paul:

As Cuba Gooding's character said to Tom Cruise's character in the movie "Jerry McGuire";

"That's a way--not a very good way---but it is a way!"

[Patrick_Mucci]

NGLA has spines of varying types, at varying angles and of varying degrees on a number of holes.

What other courses have their fair share of them ?

What seems to be their most common form ?
 

[RJ_Daley]

I'd have to say that both Whistling Straits and the Irish Course there have a good many spines.  They are mostly diagonal or sidehill to lines of play, turbo-boosting balls to certain places - some good places to play the next, and some bad places.

[Mark_Guiniven]

This sketch (Mackenzie) and the later passage from the same book sum it all up for me Pat. I doubt AM took more than two minutes drawing it, and yet there are numerous concepts illustrated within. It has a great 'spine' just short of the bunker that would appear to add the twist to this generic hole.



In 1930 St. Andrews was at its best. The links were hard and dry, and at many holes it was impossible to pitch and stay near the pin. Not only was the run up shot essential, but it was necessary to play for position and attack the subtle slopes from the correct angles.

[Patrick_Mucci]

Mark,

That's a great example of employing them as a defensive strategy, almost like a fortification.

I find the angles that spines are presented, most fascinating.

Bill Salinetti,

Has the right side spine on # 5, short of the green, been mowed to fairway yet ?

That's a great spine that's been hidden by the rough for many years.  Balls hit slightly right of it should be directed into the nearby pit bunkers, leaving a fair, but interesting and difficult approach to the green.

[BCrosby]

I too love spines, especially if they are set at a slight diagonal.

The best I have ever played is the 12th at Sandwich. A short par 4 where putting your drive on the correct side of the spine (but not hitting it so far that a gathering bunker catches you) is a matter of life or death. In fact, Sandwich has several holes where that is the case. Great stuff.

Bob

[JESII]

BCrosby

Great call re: the 12th at Sandwich, isn't there also a front to back spine on the 13th green that plays very well?

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