Bandon Trails - One guy's comments (he's not a fan)

[Dan King]

Tom Huckaby writes:
So to that end.... what did you think of #11?

I like the hole, don't like the look of it. I wish they didn't have to put the lake there. But apparantly they did. I think it is far enough away from the line of play that it should very rarely come into play.

The hole works for me. I think the turbo boost down the left side is something if you play the course numerous times you are going to try and hit. It reminds me a bit of a hole I really like at Machrihanish. I don't have my notes but I think it is eight or nine. The Machrihanish hole is blind but if you hit the drive just right it will catch a turbo boost and almost reach the green. Every time you play the hole you try, but if you miss there is no serious penalty, just a longer approach. More carrot, less stick.

My only complaint with Trails is it would be tough to play the course all that often. At least for me, it was a tough hike. I also didn't really like the eighth hole.

Dan King

Mike Keiser and Ken Nice needed that for irrigation. It was a good place to do it. But we're very rusty when it comes to lakes. But it's a good par-4, with plenty of room on the tee shot.
 --Ben Crenshaw

[THuckaby2]

Dan:

Great stuff - many thanks.  I am with you completely on #11, well said, all of it.  I do love that tee shot particularly, and it would never get old.  Ben's quote sums it up well also.

As for the walk, yes BT is a tough one.  But neither BT nor PD are easy.  To me they are all pretty tough walks - remember there are some long green to tee hikes at PD in particular.  Hell to me it's a small price to pay and my answer if I were to live there and play there all the time would to be to get in better shape.  

As for #8 BT, you mean the short par 4 with waste area left, big greenside bunker right?  I love that hole.  Before we get your post tally up too high, is that the hole in question?  I've heard critiques about 9 but not many have much bad to say about 8.

TH

[Lou_Duran]

Com'on, Dan.  I am an old diabetic but still managed to walk 36 at Bandon Trails in one day.  Ok, my fifty year-old lady caddie had to carry me up the hill on 13, but at least I didn't need oxygen.  I had a much more difficult time walking PD, but that could have been due to not being able to keep the ball on the course.

By the way, we played in a 20-35 mph S, SW wind, intermittent light rain, and 50-55* temperatures.  From the second set of tees, I shot 80 - 79, which included a triple and numerous doubles.  One of our older group members shot near par on his second round.  I just didn't see BT as being that terribly difficult.  One caveat: the greens were ultra slow (pre-opening caution), possibly around 6'.  If they ever run like Cuscowilla's, the course would have more teeth.

Re: 14, is it more difficult than #10 at Riviera?  I played chicken down the right side, though not necessarily trying, hit the ball long both times, and got it up and down once.  Personally, I liked the hole a lot.  Not a big fan of #1.

[Paul_Turner]

The 7-12 stretch of holes at Bandon Trails, with the least scenic splendour and exciting terrain will possibly polarise people's opinion.  They are similar in terrain (and general design) to holes at Hidden Creek, which certainly polarised some opinions here.

Me, I loved it.

[THuckaby2]

How soon you forget another who has played both courses.

 

Therefore, you don't get a straight answer.   Not unless you ask nicely.

TH

ps - BT isn't that bad of a walk overall, but it has one GIANT hike - from 13 green to 14 tee.  The rest is pretty equivalent to the other Bandon courses.  Make your own comparison to Lehigh.  I just don't recall being beat up tired after my round in Pennsylvania... but it was also a very mild day.  I'd guess in heat it could be very difficult.  You do have a few big hills.

[Tom Jefferson]

In the interest of accuracy, the elevation change from the front to the rear of hole #5 at Bandon Trails has been scientifically determined.

Anyone want to guess?

Hint......It's less than 30 feet!!!


Tom

[THuckaby2]

I don't recall it being THAT huge.  Sure it is for one green, but man I'm used to Pasatiempo #16.  I'd have a very hard time believing 5 BT is more than 16 Pasa.

So I'm gonna say 18 feet.  But I am the world's worst judge of such things.

TH

[Tom Jefferson]

Esteemed Mr. Huckaby;

THANKS FOR PLAYING!!

Less than 18 feet.  

Six feet from low point to high point.  Sure seems like more than that.  Perhaps the swale across the midsection influences the appearance.  And actually, the right edge of the green at the bottom of the swale is lower than the front edge.

I would agree with you that #16 at Pasa has more elevation change than #5 BT. It's been 15 years, but in my minds memory that green really climbs.


Tom

[Tom_Doak]

Tom J:

I don't have my old report in front of me, but I think I remember writing in my consulting report to Pasatiempo that they had five greens with over five feet of fall from back to front [they must have been #8, original #9, #11, #16, and the original #18] ... whereas Crystal Downs, with all its severity, has only two greens with that much fall.

There is no green in the world [except perhaps on some ridiculous modern course] that has 18 feet of elevation change.  The most of any great course I can think of is from the back left of the 11th at St. Andrews to the lowest part of the double green on the 7th.  I don't know that number off the top of my head, but it's something like 11 feet I think.

MacKenzie's Sitwell Park green must have had way more than that.  Our version in Tasmania might have ten feet, but that's measuring to the top of the ridge at the back of the green ... which is at least three feet higher than the highest cupping location.

[Tom Jefferson]

Tom D;  

So with the six feet of elevation change at BT#5 as a yardstick, I am going through my memory of ALL the greens here at Bandon Dunes, looking for the ones with the most change.  Hmmm, #2 at PD, from the high right side down into the front, which might be 3 feet;  #4 PD might fall 2 or 3 feet from left rear to front right; upper #9 PD, falling from front left to right rear...a couple feet at most?; #11 PD, a couple feet?

Or at David Kidd's Bandon Dunes.....#2, maybe 2 feet; #7, three feet at most.

No other greens on BT have much fall....perhaps #7 with 2 or so feet, or fifteen with alot of movement in the back half.

What other greens around the world are famous for elevation changes, other than TOC #7/11? When one thinks of 11 feet, that is HUGE.

This rough comparison really brings home the strength of your statement about Pasa's greens, and makes their elevation change a remarkable quality....'5 greens with over five feet.'

HMMM, maybe it's time for a journey back to Pasa!

Tom

[Paul_Turner]

Bill

I think Trails is a little bit tougher on the legs than Lehigh.  A couple more holes that pull on the muscles and a stiff climb between 13 and 14.  Not bad though.

PS

The biggest green fall on PD must be the 5th?

[Jonathan Cummings]

Okay Dokay - here's one (although it is a modern course).  I'll probably exaggerate so you 'Bamans correct me.

The 4th hole of the Loblolly nine at the RTJ Trail course - Cambian Ridge may well be the most ridiculously sloped green in golf.  It is narrow and 100 yards long (the green, not the hole!)  The green is three tiered with each tier above the adjacent tier by 10' or so.  You play the hole as three flat greens tied together with mowed green surface.

Crazy hole and nearly offensive when you stare at it from the tee.

JC

[Jim Nugent]

Okay Dokay - here's one (although it is a modern course).  I'll probably exaggerate so you 'Bamans correct me.

The 4th hole of the Loblolly nine at the RTJ Trail course - Cambian Ridge may well be the most ridiculously sloped green in golf.  It is narrow and 100 yards long (the green, not the hole!)  The green is three tiered with each tier above the adjacent tier by 10' or so.  You play the hole as three flat greens tied together with mowed green surface.

Crazy hole and nearly offensive when you stare at it from the tee.

JC

Any pictures of this green and hole?

[JohnV]

There is no green in the world [except perhaps on some ridiculous modern course] that has 18 feet of elevation change.  The most of any great course I can think of is from the back left of the 11th at St. Andrews to the lowest part of the double green on the 7th.  I don't know that number off the top of my head, but it's something like 11 feet I think.

How much does the 17th green at Bandon Dunes have?  It seems to be a huge drop although I'd be surprised if it was 18 feet.

[THuckaby2]

Jeez guys, I said I suck at estimating distances.  My 18 feet was a wild-ass guess, just based on Tom J saying it was less than 30!  Now it seems to have started being used as some sort of standard... Hey I appreciate the good faith, but let's get back to my self-appraisal here.

 

TD is right also - there are several greens at Pasa with large back to front slopes - 16 is just the largest, I'd say.  He himself decreased 11 a tiny bit, but it still is a monster.  The others (8/9/18) have seemingly been modified from their original states because they don't have that type of fall now, but each is still VERY sloped.

The point is #5 BT has nothing on Pasa - or many other places, I'd imagine.  Oh it's a fantastic green - it's just not some unfair out of this world unique monster, that's all.

Side to David M - concur with your take on our 1.6's view of #14 completely - I speculated on such in this thread - I have to believe he'd change his view if he played it a few more times.  But good call in saying:

I think hackers see it differently, or at least should.  A hole is playable if one can keeping golfing their ball (without drops or penalties) and eventually hole out.


That's what George Pazin has been trying to drum into my head for a long time - even though I understand it already!  But anyway that is a point well taken.

TH

[Dan Kelly]

Jeez guys, I said I suck at estimating distances.

Don't worry about it.

Lots of guys suck at estimating things.

Or so I'm told.

As for the 18-foot standard: Perhaps, henceforth, any green with an absurd elevation change should be known as a "Huckaby."

[Evan Fleisher]

Jeez guys, I said I suck at estimating distances.

Don't worry about it.

Lots of guys suck at estimating things.

Or so I'm told.

As for the 18-foot standard: Perhaps, henceforth, any green with an absurd elevation change should be known as a "Huckaby."

Is this kind of like another of those "measureable" estimates, similar to this one...there are 7 sh!tloads in a f*ckload?

[THuckaby2]

I am honored. But Dan, hmmm... my guess 18 feet... reality 6 feet... 3 to one ratio seems about right, doesn't it?

There are a lot of Huckaby greens at Pasatiempo.  And yes, #5 BT is a Huckaby to end all.  But remember that one at Paa-Ko Ridge, the par 3 with 8 tiers or something?  That's got to be "Mecha-Huckaby."

TH

ps - that ought to have great meaning to anyone who watched the South Park re-run on Comedy Central last night.

[Tom_Doak]

Tom and Tom:

You are not the only one who has trouble guessing elevation changes.  Jay Morrish told me that when he worked for Desmond Muirhead, he and the contractor used to cut the planned elevations of the green in half so they wouldn't be unplayable, and then lie to Desmond about it if he asked.

Tom J:  I would guess that you're underestimating some of the elevation changes in the greens there.  They aren't as wacky as St. Andrews, but I'd bet you a beer that 3-4 of Bill and Ben's other greens have more than three feet of difference from highest to lowest point, and some at Pacific Dunes as well.  It just doesn't show up as much as somewhere like Pasatiempo because you aren't maintaining the greens at unreasonably fast speeds.

[John Kirk]

Off the top of my head, greens I believe have 4-5 feet elevation change at the Bandon resort:

#7, #17 and #18 at Bandon Dunes
#5, #9 (upper), #13 and #15 at Pacific Dunes
#1, #5, #7, and maybe #16 at Bandon Trails.

By the way, the previously mentioned low handicap buddy also disliked the #11 green at BT because it was too flat.  There's just no pleasing these people!

I cannot believe the #11 green at Pasatiempo is over 5 feet in elevation change.  It's not a large green.  No wonder the putts all fell to the bottom!  I'm playing there next Saturday.  Looking forward to seeing the changes.

[THuckaby2]

TD - very well said, I feel a little better.    I also love the last line re Pasa.  Cool thing is that new 11 green works.  Keep the faith!

TH

[Mike Hendren]

In praise of slower green speeds:



 

[THuckaby2]

In further praise:

[Tom Jefferson]

John Vander Bordht;

After our work today at Bandon Dunes Resort, Eric Johnson, sup't. at Bandon Dunes, and I went out to the 17th green and measured the fall from the rear edge to the front edge at 5.5 feet, give or take a couple inches.  Measured from the front cup position to the rear cup position.....5 feet.

..........of course, the REAL reason Eric joined me was to try out his new blades!!!!  What a pleasure to take the plastic off both the head and the grip, find a broken tee, and let 'er rip!
(I had to invite him....he was in his office all day, salivating at the thought of swinging 'em.)  Thanks Eric!

Tom

ps..........perfect sunny weather today, and a one club wind.

[Tom Jefferson]

John Vander Borght;

My apologies for the misspelling of your name.

Tom