[Mark Saltzman]

Playing on the flat expanse that is Florida golf, I have come across a bunker pattern that I termed (note, there may be an actual name for it) the 'bunkers everywhere' look.

The bunkers everywhere is found on holes where the fairway bunkers in play on the tee shot mesh with fairway/greenside bunkers in the distance to give the appearance of bunkers on all lines.  I have found it makes it very difficult to get comfortable on tees where this happens, even though I know that some of the bunkers are a long way in the distance and are not in play.

The first one I noticed was the 5th at Coral Ridge CC (RTJ Sr):  On the tee shot there is a centreline bunker and two flanking bunkers, and there are also bunkers in the distance on both sides of the centreline bunker. 




The second time I noticed this was the 1st at Parkland G&CC (Norman): On this one the staggered bunkers (left and right) in play on the tee shot frame the fairway, but more fairway bunkers (which are about 375 yards in the distance) are placed right in the middle of them. 

I found that depth perception on both of these tee shots was very difficult.




Any one example of bunkers everywhere that has that is not at all what I am talking about: These bunkers just frame the fairway and it is awfully clear where I am supposed to hit it.





It may just be that I seen many holes and by coincidence, some holes have bunkers in the distance that create this pattern.  Have others seen examples of this? Thoughts?

[Matthew Sander]

Mark,

Here is a photo from Southern Dunes GC in Maricopa, AZ. The 14th is a short par 4 with many bunkers. Some frame the edges of the landing areas, others cross the fairway, and there are greenside bunkers. On such a short hole, it was difficult to tell which bunkers were nearer from the tee. Additionally, the fairway landing area is semi-blind, making the first go round a bit of a crap shoot...

[Mark Saltzman]

Matthew,

Exactly! great picture.

The question in my mind is 'did the architect do this on purpose or did he just place bunkers all over the place and it just-so-happened that it creates the visual confusion that it does'?

[Ed Oden]

Mark, in response to question #4 of his December 2009 feature interview with Ran, Wayne Morrison describes how Flynn used this feature on the 6th hole at Indian Creek... http://www.golfclubatlas.com/feature-interview/wayne-morrison-december-2009/

[Matthew Sander]

That is an excellent question Mark, and obviously could only be answered with any kind of certainty by the architects (Curley and Schmidt in the case of SD). If I had to guess, I would think they understood the visual deception that the gauntlet of bunkers would create. The only landing area that was clearly defined was the ultra-conservative route which only required a mid-iron. Anything further right and longer was obscured by the bunkering. It worked on me...I believe on the tee I said, "Hell with it, I'm going to find that big green patch 180 yards away!"  The entire course features bold bunkering and many holes require decisions with the primary obstacles being the bunkers.

However, the second possibility you mentioned could also be possible. Their thought could have been - '...this hole is short enought that we'll throw the kitchen sink at 'em and if they don't execute they'll find a bunker...'

[Mark Saltzman]

Mark, in response to question #4 of his December 2009 feature interview with Ran, Wayne Morrison describes how Flynn used this feature on the 6th hole at Indian Creek... http://www.golfclubatlas.com/feature-interview/wayne-morrison-december-2009/

Ed, thank you.

[Matthew Sander]

Here is an overhead shot of the hole I mentioned at Southern Dunes:



As you see, there is room off the tee - especially so since the hole is quite short. Hit a mid-iron out to the left, a longer iron or hybrid to the smaller right portion of the first fairway, hit over the cluster bunkers with a driver or fairway wood, or lastly take a shot at the green with a driver for the longer players. From the tee the first time those options are not clear at all...I guess whether or not that is good is in the eye of the beholder.

I really like the Indian Creek example that Wayne Morrison describes (thanks for the link Ed!). From the tee your eye is drawn to what looks like a never ending sea of bunkers. However, when you look at the satellite view of the hole, you see plenty of room for a multitude of distance/direction options.

[Mark Saltzman]

Photo credit to Joe Bausch, the second hole at French Like Ross is one of the best examples I've ever seen.  Very cool.

[Dónal Ó Ceallaigh]

Hole 9 from Brian Sheehy's review of Wentworth.

[Neil White]

Donal,

To me your photo of the ninth at Wentworth doesn't quite fulfil the remit as described by Mark in his initial post - whilst there maybe plenty of bunkers, the everywhere aspect is lost due to their being down the flanks of the hole and not necessarily on any line that a golfer may wish to play.

A bit ugly really as well with their copy and paste appearance.......

Neil.

[Dónal Ó Ceallaigh]

Donal,

To me your photo of the ninth at Wentworth doesn't quite fulfil the remit as described by Mark in his initial post - whilst there maybe plenty of bunkers, the everywhere aspect is lost due to their being down the flanks of the hole and not necessarily on any line that a golfer may wish to play.

A bit ugly really as well with their copy and paste appearance.......

Neil.

Neil,

You are indeed correct. The Wentworth example is similar to Mark's third photograph, where it is obviously clear where you need to go. I just got carried away with 'bunkers everywhere' title.

Agreed; they are ugly and unimaginative.

[Tim Gavrich]

I think that visual trope makes a flat golf hole instantly more interesting and appealing.  There are two Norman courses on the Grand Strand--the Norman course at Barefoot Resort and The Reserve Golf Club down in Pawleys Island, where this effect is used on very short par 4s.  It is pretty clear that the wisest play is something like a 5 wood off the tee, but it is by no means whatsoever easy to hit that layup shot properly.

That effect seems to go on a little bit at May River, for another example of a course being discussed recently on here.

[Sean_A]

Mark,

Here is a photo from Southern Dunes GC in Maricopa, AZ. The 14th is a short par 4 with many bunkers. Some frame the edges of the landing areas, others cross the fairway, and there are greenside bunkers. On such a short hole, it was difficult to tell which bunkers were nearer from the tee. Additionally, the fairway landing area is semi-blind, making the first go round a bit of a crap shoot...

I don't have a clue what is going on in this photo and I am not sure that is a good thing.

I don't know why this pic was included - please explain.

Ciao


 

[David_Tepper]

Anyone have pictures of Nick Faldo's Chart Hills course in Kent, England? Plenty of bunkers there!

http://www.charthills.co.uk/golf/front9.asp

[Jeff_Brauer]

Re: the ninth at Wentworth, FWIW, I call that Christmas Tree Bunkering, as it narrows to a point, with the green being the top of the tree.  It is quite effective at leading the eye to the green.

If bunkers everywhere is going to read, the Southern Dunes example shows you you need an elevated tee to see the alternate fw.  On flat ground, it is harder to pull off.  In reality, you usually cannot see past the first bunker line, losing much of the effect.  Like Sean says, it is confusing and not usually a good effect.

All those calling for blind shots (which to me are okay if you can actually discern a line) and "confusion" should look at that photo!  Like blind shots, indecision can be a good thing, but when you have NO ideas where to play, it crosses the line IMHO.

The "bunkers everywhere" concept is one I consider on a boring area of a site, and then only once for a visual change of pace.  It doesn't take much to talk me out of it.  Hard to get right, usually busts the budget for a questionable effect that not all will appreciate, and of course, unless you do it twice it can be out of character to a large degree.  Maybe the best way to do it is like Inverness 1 and 10 where the same cluster of bunkers works for two holes, its visible from the CH and pro shop, etc.

[Lou_Duran]

I played a lot of my early golf on a course that had a total of one bunker (RS #6 rough, Hillcrest GC, Findlay, OH).  I love bunkers.  Lots of them of different sizes, shapes, depths, and even style.  They are the most important design features next to the green complexes.  Bunkers are also terrible for public golf in terms of cost, maintenance, and speed of play.

A former GM of two well-known daily-fee facilities in Dallas told me last year that he can't think of a single course in north Texas built in the last 15-20 years whose bunkers didn't require major work in less than five years.  At the course I was playing that day, he said it would cost upwards $350,000 to rebuild the bunkers correctly.  He noted that there's not enough money in golf for the investment to pay-off half of that cost, and that public golfers don't put much value on good bunkering anyways.  Their "official" reply when people complained about the poor conditions is that bunkers are designed to be hazards and play accordingly.

I played one of the best public courses north of Dallas yesterday, Jeff's Ridgeview Ranch.  The course is well-bunkered on a site with a modest amount of elevation, but poor, heavy soil.  After a five inch rain last week, all the bunkers were washed out, many still had standing water in them.  The course gets a tremendous amount of play- I've heard the figure of 60,000 rounds on several occasions- and serves a community with enviable demographics.  The talk from a couple "regulars" is that the city is going to do some work on the bunkers piecemeal, and take quite a few of them out.  Is so, the "Look" will no doubt suffer, the course will lose some of its architectural integrity, but it will probably still draw a lot of golfers.  Pity that this approach appears to be the future of public golf.     

[Tom Yost]

Mark,

Here is a photo from Southern Dunes GC in Maricopa, AZ. The 14th is a short par 4 with many bunkers. Some frame the edges of the landing areas, others cross the fairway, and there are greenside bunkers. On such a short hole, it was difficult to tell which bunkers were nearer from the tee. Additionally, the fairway landing area is semi-blind, making the first go round a bit of a crap shoot...

I don't have a clue what is going on in this photo and I am not sure that is a good thing.

The overhead in Reply #6 makes the hole more understandable, but certainly the view from the tee is confusing and intimidating.

I thought of the Wildfire Faldo course immediately when reading the thread title, "Bunkers Everywhere."  It doesn't look so bad from the overhead, but standing on most every tee box, there is an element of clutter that makes it a challenge to discern the correct line of play.

This may be a Schmidt and Curley trademark.   While Southern Dunes has A LOT of bunkers, there are some generous playing areas, the trick is figuring out where they are.  It takes a few plays to get past the visual clobbering you get standing on the tees.

[Peter Pallotta]

Mark - I think this is a picture of Greg Norman's course in Uxbridge, Ontario, which a close firend played and liked and found quite hard.
Not "everywhere", but a lot of them.
Peter

[Matthew Sander]

One other note about the Southern Dunes example...the course was designed to be the center piece of a men's only (if I'm not mistaken) private club. Naturally, most who would be playing the course would play the hole many times and would be familiar with its lines and options. However, the club has since gone public and therefore, many are playing the hole for the first time (or one and only time), which makes the blindness/confusion more of an issue.

Like I said before in the thread, whether or not this approach is good is in the eye of the beholder. I actually had both feelings when I played the hole. On the tee the first time, I really had no idea what I was looking at and didn't really understand what the options may be. After playing the hole and looking back from the green you can see the many ways to play the hole and I thought that repeated plays would provide a lot of fun and interest...

[Matthew Petersen]

One other note about the Southern Dunes example...the course was designed to be the center piece of a men's only (if I'm not mistaken) private club. Naturally, most who would be playing the course would play the hole many times and would be familiar with its lines and options. However, the club has since gone public and therefore, many are playing the hole for the first time (or one and only time), which makes the blindness/confusion more of an issue.

Like I said before in the thread, whether or not this approach is good is in the eye of the beholder. I actually had both feelings when I played the hole. On the tee the first time, I really had no idea what I was looking at and didn't really understand what the options may be. After playing the hole and looking back from the green you can see the many ways to play the hole and I thought that repeated plays would provide a lot of fun and interest...

I really enjoyed that hole as well as a couple of others on the course that play similar visual tricks (#2 particularly comes to mind). Everyone who plays there gets a yardage card which gives the player a good idea of what the options are, even without having played it. Certainly the blindness always makes some of those plays intimidating, though ... even if you "know" there's fairway over this or that feature.

[Mark Saltzman]

I don't know why this pic was included - please explain.

Ciao


 

Sean, I presume you are discussing the picture I quoted above.

It was included because the two fairway bunkers on the left merge with the bunker on the right, which is actually just short of the green.  The appearance is that there is no line you can hit your tee shot on, other than the sliver of fairway way right, and not have a bunker in play.  There is an appearance of 'bunkers everywhere' or bunkers on every line, but this is deceptive.

It is a perfect example of what I was thinking of.  Make sense?

[Sean_A]

Mark

Yes, it may look cool (not sure why), but i can't see this deception actually working.  Even in flattened 2d I can see that there is tons of room to the green over the middle bunker.  Its the left greenside bunker which partly gives it away.  It could be a case of bunker too many.

Ciao

[Mark Saltzman]

Sean,

sorry, I missed your post.

Wrong deception.  The deception is not that the centre bunker is well short of the green, that is obvious [though from the fairway it may not be... don't know, never played there...].

The deception is that the bunker in question, the one well short of the green, looks like it is the third in the series of fairway bunkers.  It makes it look like the fairway bunkers start at the left edge of the fairway, and they continue almost all the way to the right rough.  It looks like there is no safe line on which one can hit a tee shot.

This is a very cool visual trick.

[Adrian Cochrane]

I have to agree with Mark on the Ross hole.  That's probably one of the best examples of bunker deception I've seen... Great hole.

I wish I had a picture of the 11th hole at Tarandowah (Avon, Ontario, Canada), but I'm sure you have played it and remember it, Mark.  The hole's a beast as it is (468 yard par 4 from the tips) but from the tee it looks like the bunkers left and right all line up right in the landing area.  The overhead shot (sorry - satellite image taken before completion of the course) reveals that there is more space on the left side than the right, which is impossible to realize on the tee box.  Better yet, hitting it to the left side is required for a better angled approach and to assist in avoiding the brutal greenside bunkers short and right of the green.  A very challenging but well designed hole. 

http://www.puregolf.net/coursetour11.htm

[Tags:]

Tags:

[Tags:]

Tags:

Call to undefined function theme_linktree()