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Philip Gawith

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Coombe Hill
« on: October 31, 2005, 12:03:40 PM »
I played this course for the first time on Friday and would recommend a visit. It is only 7 miles from the centre of London, yet somehow manages to have a very low profile.

It is an Abercrombie course - how many other courses did he do other than this one and the Addington? What features is he known for?

It is a parkland course, but does not visually resemble any other course near London that I can think of off-hand. There are small bits of heather, but apparently some committee decided - about 20 years ago? - to tear out all the heather so it does not really have heathland characteristics.

The memories I take away from the course are:

- great set of par 3's, albeit three of them of very similar length ( around 185 yards). They all involve a fair bit of elevation change. Apparently the ninth looks fantastic in spring - a huge bowl of rhododendrons. I will have to go back!
- a couple of daunting uphill par fours with very significant elevation changes.
- the surprise in finding such a hilly course so close to central London ( Royal Wimbledon is on similar terrain, but I have played it).
- some very large greens, with quite severe slopes, but not contrived. It was very wet when I played it but I can believe that in summer some of these greens get pretty scary.
- the Jewish character of the club. The club was founded in 1946 when Jews were not allowed into many other clubs. To this day it still has (so my host told me) c75% Jewish membership. Excellent pre-lunch snack of salt beef, gherkin and latkes (sp??) was not the boarding school food normally associated with older English golf clubs!

Steve_ Shaffer

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Coombe Hill
« Reply #1 on: October 31, 2005, 01:15:05 PM »
Phil

Thanks for the information. Great website:

www.coombehillgolfclub.com

"A course seemingly designed by Dr. Jekyll and Mr. Hyde"

I'll add this to my list of "historically Jewish" clubs for my research project.

Steve
"Some of us worship in churches, some in synagogues, some on golf courses ... "  Adlai Stevenson
Hyman Roth to Michael Corleone: "We're bigger than US Steel."
Ben Hogan “The most important shot in golf is the next one”

Philip Gawith

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Coombe Hill
« Reply #2 on: October 31, 2005, 01:28:57 PM »
It is a good website Steve - you are right, and the history section is quite entertaining. Curious, though, that there is no mention of Abercbrombie anywhere on the site!

One of the founder members was, if I remember right, called Lou Freeman and he was obviously a "player" - in the spike bar there are pictures of him with palmer, nicklaus, player, johnny miller etc. Not sure where they were all taken, but he clearly got around!

Sean_A

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Coombe Hill
« Reply #3 on: October 31, 2005, 10:32:10 PM »
Philip

Looks like a decent joint, but at 80 quid, I am not likely to gain first hand knowledge.  I just don't believe it can be worth that kind of cash.  London prices are one thing, but prices for golf in general continue to amaze me.  It just seems like nobody blinks an eye on either side of the pond at charging 75 quid or more for nice courses with average conditioning.  No wonder the business side of golf is struggling.  

Ciao

Sean
New plays planned for 2024: Nothing

Philip Gawith

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Coombe Hill
« Reply #4 on: November 01, 2005, 03:41:15 AM »
Sean, you are right - £80 is a lot, though close proximity to London is a factor.

 I wouldn't want to pay that regularly. On the other hand, I  I don't generally mind paying up for "jewels" - and Abercbrombie is a distinguished architect, and there is not much of his legacy around, hence my desire to play there (I was a guest, so it was a cheap day!).

Where I do agree with you is that I resent paying top dollar for blatantly commercial-inspired golf developments. Old Head wins the prize in that regard - its opening green fee was something like Euro 190 quite a few years ago. I had no desire to play there.

James Edwards

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Coombe Hill
« Reply #5 on: November 01, 2005, 03:57:02 AM »
Philip,

Hasnt it been remodelled recently by a senior eigca member and won an award for it?
@EDI__ADI

Philip Gawith

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Coombe Hill
« Reply #6 on: November 01, 2005, 04:18:20 AM »
You may be right James. I had not played the course before so had no grounds for comparison, and the member I played with made no mention of any recent changes - which I suspect he would have done.

Mark_Rowlinson

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Coombe Hill
« Reply #7 on: November 01, 2005, 06:42:03 AM »
Philip,

Some years ago, when I was there, I had a long chat with Tina De Foy, the Secretary (and wife of Professional, Craig De Foy, an ex-European Tour player - they've always had top professionals).  I suggested to her that the Abercrombie clubs should get together once a year for an Abercrombie tournament, rather as the MacKenzie ones do.  She came back to me saying there was no interest in such a tournament.  

As well as The Addington (which is the most characterful of the Aber Courses) Bovey Castle in Devon (was known as Manor House Hotel, but recently bought by de Savary and slightly remodelled by Donald Steel's company), Worplesdon (to my mind the least of the trio of Woking, West Hill, Worplesdon, but it does have some brilliant holes and a very tough finisher, but it also has a dangerous main road to be crossed on foot twice in the round), and Knole Park (of which I have no personal knowledge).  Cornish and Whitten also mention Cowdray Park (which the club credits to Simpson) and West Kent.  

Of the four Aber courses I know, I don't think there is anything similar between them (which is something I have also thought about the Fowler courses I have experienced).  All four are interesting to play with their challenges seemingly based on imaginative use of the topography - all those gullies and dips at The Addington, the broad sweeps of Coombe Hill, the much more heavily bunkered heathland nature of Worplesdon, and the brilliant use of the ubiquitous river at Bovey Castle.  The one thing they have in common is some really good short holes.

I think I've mentioned this before, but on that most recent visit to Coombe Hill (winter 1999 or 2000) I did not play, but walked the course with the course manager.  I did so in my Wellington boots.  I left them in the locker room while I talked to Tina and when I went to retrieve them I found them being buffed up like new as if they were a pair of member's golf shoes!

Philip Gawith

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Coombe Hill
« Reply #8 on: November 01, 2005, 06:57:21 AM »
Thanks for your thoughts Mark.

I have played a few times at Worplesdon - I did not realise it was Abercrombie. Addington is an omission which I need to put right - soon! As for Bovey Castle, I think it was re-opened last year as a luxury hotel. That will interest my wife enough to let me get down there!

Craig De Foy is still in residence - he was pointed out to me.

Sean_A

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Coombe Hill
« Reply #9 on: November 01, 2005, 08:36:27 AM »
James

You are correct.  Coombe Hill has been smartened up just recently and the work has been very well received.

Philip

You are a crafty devil.  I knew you were too smart to pay a visitor fee.  I am hoping to emulate you in playing Huntercombe as a guest!  If you do decide to play Addington, give me a call.  This one figures high on my list of must plays.

Ciao

Sean
New plays planned for 2024: Nothing

T_MacWood

Re:Coombe Hill
« Reply #10 on: November 01, 2005, 09:03:44 AM »
Coombe Hill was actually a collaboration of Abercromby and Willie Park-Jr....as was Worplesdon.

The more I learn about Abercromby the more I'm inclined to think he was one of the best of his era, despite a limited portfolio. He was unversally praised by his associates and rivals for his design skill and artistry.

TEPaul

Re:Coombe Hill
« Reply #11 on: November 01, 2005, 09:48:01 AM »
It seems to me that of that group of really innovative "healthland" architects the one that seemed to get the most respect for his raw talent amongst his peers in his time was Herbert Fowler. Obviously the guy was a real "quick study". At that early time when for the first time some really good inland courses were being built there certainly seemed to be a good deal of "architectural philosophizing". Golf architecture "inland" was coming out of the penal school and testing the possiblities of the "strategic school". A good example of that evolution seemed to be Fowler's Walton Heath (1904) where 'he debated the virtues of cross bunkers versus side hazards' and decided to do both.

In that vein, I wonder if Herbert Fowler stopped by PVGC to collaborate during it's creation?  ;) :)

Sean_A

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Coombe Hill
« Reply #12 on: November 01, 2005, 10:54:07 AM »
Tom

I am told that Fowler was still debating cross/side hazards when he did Beau Desert.  There are several holes which feature these nasty cross hazards.  Most enhance the strategy of the hole.  

The long, legging to the left 2nd hole has a well placed cross bunker which comes into play after a poor drive or for shorter hitters.

The great fifth hole also has a cross bunker, though I have never seen anybody in it.  It mostly plays on the mind of shorter hitters.

#17 has a wasty area which really cuts the fairway in half.  This is the only one I dislike as there is no place to go around this bunker.  It is a layup or take your chances with getting a decent lie in the waste.  

#18 also has a set of three blind bunkers which effectively cut the hole in half.  Though I think these are good because one can get lucky and run the gauntlet.  Also, playing out of these bunkers still leaves a reasonable third shot to this short par 5.  It is good fun to walk up and see if you have cheated old Fowler or not (though I am not sure these are Fowler bunkers, I think there originally was a wasty area that has been turned into bunkers).  A good risk/reward tee shot in my opinion.  

Fowler also uses cross bunkers on a few par 3s, all to good effect.

Ciao

Sean



New plays planned for 2024: Nothing

Mark_Rowlinson

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Coombe Hill
« Reply #13 on: November 01, 2005, 03:03:58 PM »
Sean,

Your summary of Beau Desert is perceptive.  That cross bunker on the 5th is so much a period piece, but isn't it marvellous that it's not been removed.  It comes into play when you miss the fairway with your drive (very easily done) or for weak players such as me.

Richard Pennell

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Coombe Hill
« Reply #14 on: November 01, 2005, 03:25:51 PM »
I too played Coombe Hill for the first time this year, back in May. They had recently cored and dressed the greens at that time but they were pretty quick for round here, especially on the wrong side of any of the considerable contours.

Philip - I loved the short holes too, and its interesting that you mention the tough steep par 4's (8 & 16) - part of the renovation work centred on making the 2 holes feel different from each other. http://www.bigga.org.uk/greenkeeper/viewstory.php?id=576
Royal Wimbledon is similar terrain, and the 5th fairway can be seen from Coombe Hill, but a very different feel. I actually prefer RW's style of presentation, a bit less stripey and green.

£80 is a lot to pay for golf but Coombe Hill is a wealthy club that doesn't really need revenue from green fees so I don't think they care either way. I agree with Sean that some clubs charge way over the odds but Coombe Hill was in immaculate condition when I played and it certainly feels pretty special. (I didn't pay though! ;D)

Here are some photos of the course:


The approach to the 3rd


The short 6th (180 yds)


Looking back down the 8th


The short 9th (184 yds)


The 10th fairway comes into view after the blind drive


I birdied the 11th ;)


The short 12th (186yds)


Unpredictable bounces on the 14th


Looking back down the 400 yard 16th


The 145 yard 17th
"The rules committee of the Royal and Ancient are yesterday's men, Jeeves. They simply have to face up to the modern world" Bertie Wooster

Philip Gawith

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Coombe Hill
« Reply #15 on: November 01, 2005, 05:41:44 PM »
Thanks Richard - very nice pictures which do a better job of presenting the course than my words! The fairways in late October are not quite so tidily mown!

TEPaul

Re:Coombe Hill
« Reply #16 on: November 01, 2005, 06:04:38 PM »
Ahhh, the grandeur of "mature trees". It takes so long to get a golf course to this delightful state one wonders why anyone would ever propose murdering any of them.   ;)

Tony_Muldoon

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Coombe Hill
« Reply #17 on: November 01, 2005, 06:23:33 PM »
Great pictures Richard.  Most people on here won't appreciate how close to central london this course is.  Even though I drive right by it every couple of weeks I'm amazed how green the views are - Richmond Park and Wimbledon Common?  I'm guessing the blocks of flats must be Roehampton?  If the clubs aspect was turned round 90 degrees you'd see pretty much most of London.

To tie in with another current topic, if you visit the clubs website above they even have a page on its history.  But it's all about the personalities that have been associated with the club. The architects don't get a mention nor do they even give the dates the work was done.  If a club like this isn't interested in it's GCA history it helps explains the apathy to the subject in this country.

Let's make GCA grate again!

Tony_Muldoon

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Coombe Hill
« Reply #18 on: November 01, 2005, 06:27:13 PM »
. There are small bits of heather, but apparently some committee decided - about 20 years ago? - to tear out all the heather

If you've never played a heathland course you won't appreciate what a shocking act of vandalism this statement reveals.  

Heather and Golf there's a thread coming, just need more pictures.
Let's make GCA grate again!

Philip Gawith

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Coombe Hill
« Reply #19 on: November 02, 2005, 03:30:57 AM »
I think you are right Tony - the glorious Roehampton skyline! It is still a great view that hole -but must have been even better 30 years ago.

You are right re the heather - beggars belief. If they are not pulling out the heather, they are sticking in the gorse, like an alien intruder. :)

Lynn_Shackelford

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Coombe Hill
« Reply #20 on: November 02, 2005, 10:39:00 AM »
I am currently reading THE IMMORTAL BOBBY by Ron Rapoport.  The book covers one of Jones' competitors in the 1930 British Open, Archie Compston.  He spent many years as the pro at Coombe Hill.  Apparently a colorful character.  It mentions the club's list of celebrity members including members of the royal family, David Lloyd George, Winston Churchill (imagine that swing) and others.  He said General Eisenhower played there while preparing the D-Day invasion, but for security reasons played only four holes.  I wish the General had spent less time on the course and more on planning air cover.
It must be kept in mind that the elusive charm of the game suffers as soon as any successful method of standardization is allowed to creep in.  A golf course should never pretend to be, nor is intended to be, an infallible tribunal.
               Tom Simpson

Philip Gawith

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Coombe Hill
« Reply #21 on: November 02, 2005, 11:40:38 AM »
Lynn - if you go the History section of the website (See the link in the first response) then you will discover that the same Archie was a good friend of Edward VIII. It tells the story of how the two of them, in the course of a Mediterranean cruise, managed to hit 3,000 balls into the sea!

Michael Wharton-Palmer

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Coombe Hill
« Reply #22 on: November 02, 2005, 11:49:29 AM »
TE
You read my mind, I was looking at those photographs just thinking how long will it be on this thread before someone suggests that the course is due for a tree culling!

Paul_Turner

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Coombe Hill
« Reply #23 on: November 02, 2005, 12:24:31 PM »
GCAers always deliver the goods!  Great reports and pics of Coombe Hill.

Obvious similarities with Addington.  

Bunkers are all too neat and tidy, the usual modern trend. Perhaps getting some heather in the faces would help?
« Last Edit: November 02, 2005, 12:26:06 PM by Paul_Turner »
can't get to heaven with a three chord song

Paul_Turner

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Coombe Hill
« Reply #24 on: November 02, 2005, 12:35:15 PM »
Reading the BIGGA report it appears the course bunkering was changed quite significantly in the past few years.  
can't get to heaven with a three chord song

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