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Joel_Stewart

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Could a minimalist course be successful in Asia
« on: October 22, 2005, 11:08:21 PM »
I own shares in Las Vegas Sands, owners of The Venetian hotel in Las Vegas and Macau.  Yesterday they where awarded the right to build a huge resort in a seperate development area of Macau including constructing a harbor and golf course.

Most of the golf courses I have seen on TGC or photos of in China, and for the most part Japan have been Nicklaus, Palmer type modern courses.   So I am wondering, could Asians embrace a Tom Doak, C&C, Gil Hanse golf course?

Perhaps they already have and I don't know the courses.  Please let me know.

Below is a small piece of the news release.

Las Vegas Sands Corp. (NYSE: LVS - News), the first American resort and gaming company to operate in The People's Republic of China's (PRC) Special Administrative Region of Macao, announced today the company has been selected by the Zhuhai Municipal People's Government of the PRC to proceed with master planning the development of a full-fledged convention-based/lifestyle destination resort on Hengqin Island which will complement its entertainment developments on the Cotai Strip (TM) in Macao.

T_MacWood

Re:Could a minimalist course be successful in Asia
« Reply #1 on: October 22, 2005, 11:26:09 PM »
Why not? The success of a minimalistic design lies in the interesting natural features of the given site. If the site is good in Asia (or elsewhere), a golf course that takes full advantage of those natural features will succeed.

Joel_Stewart

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Could a minimalist course be successful in Asia
« Reply #2 on: October 22, 2005, 11:43:43 PM »
Why not? The success of a minimalistic design lies in the interesting natural features of the given site. If the site is good in Asia (or elsewhere), a golf course that takes full advantage of those natural features will succeed.

I'm saying that the Asians have not embraced this type of architecture and prefer big manicured courses that emulate PGA West and TPC type courses.  One course may succeed (or at least do OK) but I don't see and indication that Asia would embrace it.

Evan_Green

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Could a minimalist course be successful in Asia
« Reply #3 on: October 23, 2005, 03:08:35 AM »
Joel-

Aren't the Japanese golden oldies of Hirono, Kasumigaseki, Kawana, Naruo, etc. the most highly regarded courses in Asia?

I guess that maybe those are only the highest regaded courses of people from here. I can't say that I know for sure what their prefereces are, but I'm pretty sure a round at Hirono or any of the other 3 courdrd I mentioned above has got to get the folks juices flowing for most golfers over there.

Given this, I dont see why a new course built by Doak, especially with a setting like Kawana wouldn't be well received.



« Last Edit: October 23, 2005, 03:11:00 AM by Evan_Green »

Jason Blasberg

Re:Could a minimalist course be successful in Asia
« Reply #4 on: October 23, 2005, 03:20:01 AM »
I own shares in Las Vegas Sands,

Joel:

At least you're honest;



« Last Edit: October 23, 2005, 09:24:32 AM by Jason Blasberg »

moth

Re:Could a minimalist course be successful in Asia
« Reply #5 on: October 23, 2005, 05:44:37 AM »
Hardly likely to have a good site in Macau - either rock or reclaimed land - probably the latter.

And no - most Asians would not "get" this type of course-much less so than Americans. In Macau I dare say waterfalls, flowers and lots of green trees and grass will be the order of the day.

Jeff_Mingay

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Could a minimalist course be successful in Asia
« Reply #6 on: October 23, 2005, 10:35:41 AM »
Brett,

It seems to me, too, that the Asians like to attach a celebrity - ie. professional golfer - to the design. Is that true in most cases?
jeffmingay.com

Joel_Stewart

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Could a minimalist course be successful in Asia
« Reply #7 on: October 23, 2005, 11:48:49 AM »
Aren't the Japanese golden oldies of Hirono, Kasumigaseki, Kawana, Naruo, etc. the most highly regarded courses in Asia?


They are but they have over grown trees, are manicured to perfection and basically not in the condition they where designed for.

Brett and Jeff make good points.  I wonder if Doak did a course with Nicklaus (like Sebonic) if the population would understand it and accept it.  You would think that Crenshaw is a big enough name that a course with Bill Coore would draw some type of audience.  Regardless, this type of course is going to be unusual and not the norm.

ForkaB

Re:Could a minimalist course be successful in Asia
« Reply #8 on: October 23, 2005, 12:03:25 PM »
I have read that the Chinese revere copies of great art as much (or often more) than the original.  Maybe perfect copies of such places as NGLA could be the future, if it would not be too ironic....

BCrosby

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Could a minimalist course be successful in Asia
« Reply #9 on: October 23, 2005, 03:14:26 PM »
My guess is that a minimalist course in China has about the same chance of success as a minimalist course in Florida.

Which is another way of saying I wouldn't invest in it unless there was a gun at my head.

Bob
« Last Edit: October 23, 2005, 03:26:44 PM by BCrosby »

Ben Cowan-Dewar

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Could a minimalist course be successful in Asia
« Reply #10 on: October 23, 2005, 03:26:10 PM »


Please definie minimalism and tell me what about this golf hole is not minimalist.

Tom_Doak

  • Karma: +2/-1
Re:Could a minimalist course be successful in Asia
« Reply #11 on: October 23, 2005, 03:59:01 PM »
I think this question attempts to generalize too broadly.

I believe it is true, as suggested, that Asians tend to be more conscious of designer labels and willing to pay more for them.  However, there is also a tradition of honoring craftsmanship, which has yet to be tapped into in the golf business but is there for the taking by the right project.

Perhaps a subtle minimalist offering would go nowhere ... but give one of us a great site and the possibility of achieving a top-100 ranking with a resort course, and you might have the most profitable course in Asia.

(However, I am not really looking to expand into Asia at this time; the language barriers are difficult and I am already maxed out on intercontinental trips.)  
« Last Edit: October 23, 2005, 04:00:54 PM by Tom_Doak »

Jin Kim

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Could a minimalist course be successful in Asia
« Reply #12 on: October 26, 2005, 09:05:35 AM »
There is some great rolling links terrain on the eastern coast of Korea near the DMZ, which was completely undeveloped as of 5 years ago (I presume because of its proximity to the DMZ).  Tom, I'd be glad to take you on a tour of the area.  Maybe there is a project there for you.

B. Mogg

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Could a minimalist course be successful in Asia
« Reply #13 on: October 26, 2005, 10:27:09 AM »
Lack of sites is not the real barrier to this type of work in Asia (there are plenty of great ones here although definately NOT in Macau)- lack of the right client is. I am not sure you could get a client with the trust required to let a "Doak Team" or C&C team etc. build a golf course in the manner in which is required to achieve the level of detailing required. That level of trust in consultants or in fact anyone outside the immediate family is rare in Asia.

I know C&C (or rather Rod Whitman) did a low key project in the jungles of Irian Jaya but this was for an american client (Freeport McMoran).

Hopefully I am proved wrong at some time in the future.

Paul_Daley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Could a minimalist course be successful in Asia
« Reply #14 on: October 27, 2005, 08:28:55 AM »
A wee caution: geographically, Japan is in Asia - plain as night and day! To the Japanese, however, they like to create a "mental divide" between themselves and the mad-cap existence of South East Asia and the countires lying closer to Australia - Malaysia, Thailand, Singapore, Vietnam and others. The Japanese golf professionals are not mad about playing on the less affluent Asian Golf Tour, instead staying at home to support the Japanese Golf Tour. A poor example, granted, but this is just one example of the many ways that Japanese isolation manifests itself. Seeing I'm way off the GCA golfing track, I may as well keep going. To almost any Australian 20 years ago, treating oneself to an Asian restaurant meant eating chinese food. That WAS Asian food! With eager taste buds to be educated, many of us have since been pleasantly shocked at the significant differences between the various Asian cuisines. Sorry for the roundabout way of warning not to generalise about Asia. It's official: I'm out of golf and in to food!  


harley_kruse

Re:Could a minimalist course be successful in Asia
« Reply #15 on: October 30, 2005, 06:24:25 PM »
As Paul Daley has eluded to there are marked differences in Asian culture between countries. Even in China where I have lived and worked there are subtle but important differences between the cultures of say  Shanghai and Beijing.

When it comes to golf courses  in the south eastern Asian countries of Indonesia, Thailand, Philippines  for example, they look to America and particularly Augusta National as the role model. This is the  style to be emulated, and the place where the big design brands of Nicklaus, RTJ etc come from. Culturally wise a lot of Asian clients want Par 72 (anything less is inferior) ,returning nines, a manicured look,  and for one client I was involved with,  it was critical that the driver be the choice of club off the first tee..the idea of using a 3wood or iron off the tee (the wiser play)  was just not acceptable.

Golf obsessive Japan and Korea (which closely follows Japanese golf culture)have developed a golf culture on mainly steep sites that tends never to break the mould. Double greens, carts, and impeccably dressed women caddies are de-riguer.  With the flatter land protected for agriculture it leaves hillsides requiring big earthworks to render the land suitable for golf. These two countries comprise extremely proud and self determined people where to break out and do something different has historically been rare,

China on the other hand is much different. This relatively immature golf market is reluctant to pay  big money for design. Brands at this stage dont mean much because the avarage new golfer in China doesn't know most of the famous names anyway.

The other most interesting thing about China golf is the Chinese cultural and indeed a national fascination with history and travel.  With relatively no predjudices it is not uncommon to find the Chinese seeking the history of the beginnings of golf and finding themselves travelling  toScotland.  To them this is more important than venturing to the USA to see a modern game.

I find the Chinese deeper study of the game  refreshing, and whilst yes the more well known courses in China have been designed by some of the bigger (US based) design names,  I have heard of 1 or 2 low key designs that are more akin to links golf's minimalist design.

China also has vast areas of land suitable for golf including coastel dunes. The Chinese people can be very practical and open minded as they adopt outside culture.  so I wouldn't be suprised if some minimalist designs do arise in the not too distant future.

Wayne_Kozun

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Could a minimalist course be successful in Asia
« Reply #16 on: October 30, 2005, 07:00:48 PM »
China on the other hand is much different. This relatively immature golf market is reluctant to pay  big money for design. Brands at this stage dont mean much because the avarage new golfer in China doesn't know most of the famous names anyway.
Then how do you explain the Mission Hills courses in Shenzen with courses designed by the following eminent golf architects:

Annike Sorenstam
David Duval
Ernie Els
Nick Faldo
David Leadbetter
Vijay Singh
Jumbo Ozaki
JM Olazabal
Jack Nicklaus
Greg Norman



harley_kruse

Re:Could a minimalist course be successful in Asia
« Reply #17 on: October 30, 2005, 09:35:21 PM »
Wayne

Amongsty Chinese golf developments Mission Hills is an exception. It is important to point out that the owners and a big part of their golfing market (over 60%)  are Hong Kong (not mainland) Chinese.  Originally with their Thailand partner, they went down the high profile path with Nicklaus Design for the original 36 holes. This has since followed on with the completion of 10 courses in all as you have quoted.

Jim Nugent

Re:Could a minimalist course be successful in Asia
« Reply #18 on: October 31, 2005, 01:02:48 AM »
One of the posts above touched on this, but let me bring it up again.  How do various Asians take to TOC, or the other famous old links courses?  

If they like/love these courses, they might go for minimalist-type courses in their home turf.

Joel_Stewart

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Could a minimalist course be successful in Asia
« Reply #19 on: November 11, 2008, 11:35:21 AM »
I am going to bump this thread based on Tom Doaks announcment that he may build a course in China.   Hopefully it brings a new understanding and appreciation of architecture to China.

Ally Mcintosh

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Could a minimalist course be successful in Asia
« Reply #20 on: November 11, 2008, 11:55:48 AM »
I just read an article that said there hasn't been a single course built in China over the last few years under 6,800 metres... I find that hard to believe... Maybe it was yards (which is still bad enough)

Ryan Farrow

Re: Could a minimalist course be successful in Asia
« Reply #21 on: November 11, 2008, 10:38:14 PM »
I just read an article that said there hasn't been a single course built in China over the last few years under 6,800 metres... I find that hard to believe... Maybe it was yards (which is still bad enough)

Ally, that is just not true. At Mission Hills the Annika course is 6,703 and they Dye course 6,828 yards. It is true that most clients want at least 7,000 and are really looking for something in the mid 7,000's. But that article is really bogus.

As for the question, find me a site in Asia where its possible, there are not that many. At Schmidt-Curley we have some more rugged looking courses being built or in the planning stages, we will see how they are received. My guess is, some good press and reviews of such courses will overcome a golfers bias/fear that a "rugged" course is not maintained and not taken care of thus bad.

Joel_Stewart

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Could a minimalist course be successful in Asia
« Reply #22 on: November 12, 2008, 01:23:48 AM »
I thought I saw a post here from a guy working for the Nicklaus team in Asia said the Chinese goverment has banned all new golf course construction for up to two years?

B. Mogg

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Could a minimalist course be successful in Asia
« Reply #23 on: November 12, 2008, 04:53:47 AM »
"Golf Courses" have been banned in China for about 6 years now but somehow about 400 have been built during this time including about 40 in Beijing. All is not what it seems in China (ever) - some of the courses are "theme parks" (I bnelieve Nicklaus was called a famous theme park designer), some are recreation parks and some are green parks. In any case, its open slather in both Kunming and Hainan for the most part.

Its all bout who you know if you want to get things done in China.

Joel_Stewart

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Could a minimalist course be successful in Asia
« Reply #24 on: April 04, 2010, 07:29:40 PM »
It's been 5 years since I posted this and someone with a very long memory ask that I bump it based on what they have seen on the new Coore-Crenshaw course called "Shanqin Bay".  You can see photos on the C&C web site, http://www.coorecrenshaw.com/portfolio.html

This person said it will the NGLA of China???

With Tom Doak now or about to build a course in China, perhaps we are seeing the begining of many such courses in China.

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