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AndrewB

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Changes at Oakmont
« Reply #25 on: October 19, 2005, 11:54:38 AM »
What you are really describing with the Oakmont hole is the weakness of the Slope system.  Distance in golf is a continuum and an extra ten yards is always meaningful, to some players more than others.

Indeed, and the same goes for other challenges that are not distance related: they affect each player differently.

Could the rating/slope information be more accurately derived from actual posted scores?  This seems to be how standard scratch is calculated in the UK (correct me if I'm wrong).
"I think I have landed on something pretty fine."

THuckaby2

Re:Changes at Oakmont
« Reply #26 on: October 19, 2005, 11:55:53 AM »
Andrew:

Bogey distances are 175+25=200 off the tee, then 175 off the turf.

Scratch has a pretty big advantage.  I don't see that being very different in "reality" with today's equipment, in a relative sense.

I don't know how long these distances have been in place - we need John V., who is WAY more knowledgeable than I am regarding all of this.

TH

THuckaby2

Re:Changes at Oakmont
« Reply #27 on: October 19, 2005, 11:59:00 AM »
Andrew:

Please understand these distances are just one factor in the course rating process - they are the basis for all of it, true - but EVERYTHING else is considered, in the way of obstacles, elevation, wind, whatever.  My posts today are just discussing distance.

As for basing course rating on posted scores, that might work... but the current system does just fine, believe me.

Oh man we have beaten this to death WAY too many times.  Lots of people complain about this... just get Rich Goodale started.

The bottom line is that the system works pretty damn well as it is.

I knew I'd regret my curiousity about the hole at Oakmont...

 :'(

Kyle Harris

Re:Changes at Oakmont
« Reply #28 on: October 19, 2005, 11:59:56 AM »
Toms, Andrew, et al.,

What's even scarier is that an older, established course, looking for a new edge could build a whole new set of tees to bring existing features into the forefront slope/rating-wise... get them rated, and then never put the tees on them.

This is getting off topic, but do local associations have oversight as to how a rated tee is implemented?

THuckaby2

Re:Changes at Oakmont
« Reply #29 on: October 19, 2005, 12:01:22 PM »
I doubt any association can have any sway on how often tees are used.

If they have a set of tees they want rated, we rate them.  On any hole tees have to be 25 yards apart to get a separate rating though.

TH


TEPaul

Re:Changes at Oakmont
« Reply #30 on: October 19, 2005, 12:15:58 PM »
Jim Frankln said:

"....but they are adding Church Pews on the left. There was an elbow shaped hole at about 180 from the green and my host looked confused at what they were doing."

Hmmm, that doesn't sound very good if your host, seeing as who he is, was confused about it. If I find out Mark Studer is confused about it too, I think I'm gonna get real concerned. Do they have some reincarnation of William Fownes around there now who used to demand (even when he was in Mass.) that the superintendent put a bunker in overnight? ;)

Jim Franklin

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Changes at Oakmont
« Reply #31 on: October 19, 2005, 12:24:18 PM »
Tom -

You are right it is not good for my host ;). I thought the elbow shaped hole could be part of a new drainage area because it was not shaped like a normal bunker as it was really deep and narrow. There was a dug out hole in front of it that was most certainly a bunker. Fownes must have a ghost there as the course is certainly getting harder and harder.
Mr Hurricane

Mike_Cirba

Re:Changes at Oakmont
« Reply #32 on: October 19, 2005, 12:44:21 PM »
Hmm...

Let's see...

Tighter, longer, new bunkers added, old bunkers moved.   Where have I heard this before?

Did someone say this is a "restoration"?


Bill_McBride

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Changes at Oakmont
« Reply #33 on: October 19, 2005, 04:04:08 PM »
Jim Franklin, love your story about #10, hitting LW right front to get to a left pin.

The first time I played Oakmont #10 was playing maybe 440 and I hit driver a little thin and hit 2 iron about 15 yards short.  Maybe the course was wet.  ;D

The pin is back left.  I'm out in front dead center. The caddy puts the bag down, I reach for the 8 iron, he says, "Uh uh," and hands me the SW, says flop it right over there, pointing to the right front of the green.  

I pitched it just like he said.  It seemed like it took five minutes for the ball to trickle down to that left back hole.  It finally came to rest about three feet behind the hole and I stabbed in my par putt.

Never forgot that, this was about 15 years ago, maybe 20.

What a course.  Is there another in the world with three such wonderful fall away greens as #1, #10 and #12?

TEPaul

Re:Changes at Oakmont
« Reply #34 on: October 19, 2005, 04:19:55 PM »
"Is there another in the world with three such wonderful fall away greens as #1, #10 and #12?"

Bill:

You got that right. For fall-away greens with some truly interesting and intense playability requiring real imagination, those three on one course are pretty tough to top.

You know, I'Ve been reading all these old Golden Age guys in the 1920s who all seem to say it's really bad form in architecture to build greens that fall away from the shot. Thankfully Oakmont and the Fownes did what they did there that way before thinking got as standardized that way as it seems to have from the writing in the 1920s. I would love to know what Oakmont looked like around 1910!
« Last Edit: October 19, 2005, 04:21:25 PM by TEPaul »

Jeff_Mingay

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Changes at Oakmont
« Reply #35 on: October 19, 2005, 05:22:48 PM »
Tom,

I've shared this quote from legendary Canadian golf architect Vernon Macan before. Nonetheless, it seems an appropriate fit here, again.

"Today, the uninformed believe a green should be constructed with the slope from back to front, so that it will retain the ball. In brief, this suggests the shot should be a mechanical operation and the result a mathematical certainty. This is not the game of golf. Golf was not conceived as a mechanical operation but rather full of fun and adventure. Many things could happen to the ball after it pitched on the green. The ill-happenings were not regarded as ill-fortune or ill-luck, but part of the adventure, and the more skilled found methods to overcome the risks of ill-fortune."

Great stuff, eh!
jeffmingay.com

Bill_McBride

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Changes at Oakmont
« Reply #36 on: October 19, 2005, 05:27:10 PM »
Jeff, there are several greens at Macan's Columbia-Edgewater CC in Portland that have very subtle fall away slopes at the back and back corners.  I would love to know how much those greens were changed during "renovations" over the years by Bob Cupp and others.  CECC has a wonderful set of varied greens, no two really alike.

Tom, MacKenzie was not above the occasional fall away green.  #7 at The Valley Club is the example that comes to mind most readily, but I'm sure there are more.
« Last Edit: October 19, 2005, 05:28:57 PM by Bill_McBride »

gboring

Re:Changes at Oakmont
« Reply #37 on: October 19, 2005, 05:35:20 PM »
Whether you agree with the changes to Oakmont or not the reality is, if Henry Fownes were alive today the course would play 7800 yards and have over 500 bunkers.  He was well ahead of his time with keeping the course current with changing technology.  

Greg Boring

JohnV

Re:Changes at Oakmont
« Reply #38 on: October 19, 2005, 06:48:07 PM »
Since Tom H has used my name a few times I guess I'll chime in now that I'm back home after rating a course today, unfortunately not one that is anywhere near the league of Oakmont.  This will probably be quite long as there is a lot to answer.

We will be rating Oakmont next year some time when they get all the changes in place.  First let me say that most of the changes being made are based on an aerial photograph from the late 1940s which was when Mr. Fownes died so it probably reflects his thoughts.  The only area where they seem to have done something a little odd is that they really pinched in the end of the landing area on #14 to force the driver out of the big hitter's hands.  The adding of length will restore similar shot values to most of the course.  I have an ad from an old American Golfer that talks about the 15th at Oakmont being a 475 yard par 4 in 1927.  #9 will be played as a par 4 for the US Open.  But who cares as par doesn't matter.

As for #8, if we rate the back tee separately we would probably rate it as a par 4.  But, due to some possible changes in the course rating system next year, we might only be rating one set of tees for men and one for women in the future.  Yardage differences will be used for all the rest.  In that case, we would rate the most frequently used tee which will definitely not be the back one at Oakmont.  

In the >100 courses I've rated, I can't recall seeing a par 3 that would be rated as a 4 from one tee.  We do see the opposite quite frequently though.  Today we had a par 4 that had a senior tee that was only 228 yards so we rated it as a par 3.

Tom H. you were 5 yards off on both the scratch and bogey golfers second shots, they are 220 and 170.  Add 220 to 250 and the "maximum" for a par 4 is 470 yards.  We certainly do encounter par 4s over 470 yards.  There is no difference in rating a par 4 or a par 5 so it really doesn't matter what the club wants to call it.  We also see a lot of par 5s under 470, especially on older courses.  That also doesn't matter.

In regards to manipulating the course rating system, it wouldn't be hard.  To get a higher course rating, tighten the fairways from 225 to 250.  To get a higher slope, tighten them at 180-200 and again at 360-370.  Or build a creek across the fairway 20 yards short of the maximum carry distance for the player you to increase.  To get both numbers up there, grow the rough real high and get the greens real fast.  Lots of other ways also.  On top of that, by making holes of certain lengths just short of the 2 or 3 shot maximums for specific golfers you can get the numbers up.

I do know of one owner who really cares about his slope and course rating and wants the slope as high as possible.  We got a call asking why his course had a lower slope than Pine Valley.  We pointed out that the course rating was much higher and the bogey rating was higher, but the difference between them was less so the slope was lower.

Tom D, I'm glad you don't care to think about the slope system and I would hope that most if not all architects also do.

Tom H, as for the tiny % of players who can reach the 285 yard par 3, there won't be many players who play it at that length and I would assume that most of them at least think they can reach it.  I know we didn't go near there two weeks ago when we played it.

Kyle,  As for someone jobbing the system by building tees and never using them, when we prepare a course for rating, we look at wear patterns and try to find the middle of the areas that are being used.  So, if a course that built a 50 yard long tee and tried to tell us to rate it from the back and we say all the divots and the like in the front would find we didn't do what they want.  For new courses, we go back every 2-3 years for the first 10 years to make sure they haven't change things too much.  Sometimes they will grow the rough real high at first and then when the see the effect it has on pace of play, the start cutting  it shorter.

Matt_Ward

Re:Changes at Oakmont
« Reply #39 on: October 19, 2005, 06:48:58 PM »
Gents:

The changes made to the 8th at Oakmont are not ill-conceived by any stretch and I believe having the hole play 285 yards given the wide opening in front is entirely appropriate for the world's best when they play there in 2007.

I see nothing wrong in having the world's best pull out a 3-metal or its equivalent when playing the hole. If the wekaest in the field need to hit driver so be it. Many a player has done similar things when playing other such long par-3's liek the 16th at Cypress or the 16th at Carnoustie when conditions warrant.

For the people bitching and moaning about the length of the hole do yourself a big time favor -- move up to where you can play it. The length for the best players in the world is not unfair or inappropriate IMHO.

Greg B makes a very astute observation concerning the Fownes philosophy -- there was never a thought on making the course fair and easy -- it was always meant to be a demanding no-nonsense layout. Oakmont never suffers
fools -- whether in person or on GCA.

If the USGA is smart -- an always problematic assumption -- the tee boxes will be played at different lengths so that al the players in the field have some sort of equal opportunity.


Kyle Harris

Re:Changes at Oakmont
« Reply #40 on: October 19, 2005, 08:28:33 PM »
Matt, et al,

I, too, am in the 285 Par 3 is good camp. Frankly, there aren't enough 220+ par 3s out there to test that aspect of the game.

What club is most often left in the bag?

3-wood

A LONG par 3 changes that.

Patrick_Mucci

Re:Changes at Oakmont
« Reply #41 on: October 19, 2005, 09:31:47 PM »
Matt, et al,

I, too, am in the 285 Par 3 is good camp. Frankly, there aren't enough 220+ par 3s out there to test that aspect of the game.

Kyle, it seems that that's all that's been created over the last 20 years.   If anything, there's a shortage of good, short par 3's.  And, there's definitely a lack of balance or diversity amongst par threes.  All too often all four are all long.

One only has to look at Pine Valley to see what's happened to par 3's.
[/color]

What club is most often left in the bag?
3-wood

I thought that's what par 5's were for.
[/color]

A LONG par 3 changes that.

I"m not so sure that long par 3's haven't become the rule rather than the exception.
[/color]
« Last Edit: October 19, 2005, 09:32:16 PM by Patrick_Mucci »

Kyle Harris

Re:Changes at Oakmont
« Reply #42 on: October 19, 2005, 09:47:10 PM »
Pat,

I'll add the qualifier "in my experience," which is about 80 courses - maybe 20 of which are notable. I am at least photographically familiar with Pine Valley, and I was under the impression that the fifth hole was the only really long Par 3 out there. Are 3 and 14 of similar length? I thought both played in the mid-long iron range.

I certainly hope that 10 isn't that long.  ;)

Rolling Green's 10th, to me, is an ideal model for the long Par 3. However, I wouldn't want to play four par 3s like that in a round, either. I just like the thought of having a wood in my hand on one of the par 3s for some courses.

I do agree with you that there are also too few short par 3s, however, I was unaware of an abundance of long par 3s as well. Just seems that every course, new and old, that I play has me hitting a 4-6 iron into the green from the tips on all their par 3s.

Patrick_Mucci

Re:Changes at Oakmont
« Reply #43 on: October 19, 2005, 10:15:18 PM »
Kyle Harris,

The 14th at Pine Valley is now 220 yards.
With wind in your face it can be a 3-wood to a driver.

# 3 is now 198 yards long, but wait a while and that too may change.

Thankfully, land constraints don't allow substantive lengthening of the 10th hole which presently plays to 161 yards.

Chris Moore

Re:Changes at Oakmont
« Reply #44 on: October 19, 2005, 10:59:13 PM »
Oakmont never suffers
fools -- whether in person or on GCA.

What, exactly, does that mean?

Jim Franklin

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Changes at Oakmont
« Reply #45 on: October 20, 2005, 08:44:03 AM »
JVB -

Thanks for that insight, very interesting to learn.

Pat -

I agree that the short par 3 is a lost art form and most new courses have the 200+ yard par three's. Also, your boys got jobbed versus SC.
Mr Hurricane

JohnV

Re:Changes at Oakmont
« Reply #46 on: October 20, 2005, 09:08:34 AM »
Jim,  I confirmed with our handicap director that when we rate the back tee on #8 we will rate it as a par 4 regardless of what it says on the card.

Jim Franklin

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Changes at Oakmont
« Reply #47 on: October 20, 2005, 10:05:38 AM »
Thanks John, I always wondered how this was done.

So rating number 8 as a par 4 will give Oakmont an even higher course rating.

Are there plans to increase the yardage minimums due to technology?
Mr Hurricane

THuckaby2

Re:Changes at Oakmont
« Reply #48 on: October 20, 2005, 10:30:06 AM »
JV:

Many thanks for setting the record straight re all of this - you are my rock.  And hey, what's 5 yards among friends.   ;)

But that just shows that relative newbies like me (4 years doing this now) ought to stick to the book, and/or think more before they write.

Re the 285 par three and my point that those who play that and can reach it ought to get an advantage, we are copacectic there.  I would assume that very few people actually play that tee and those who do will believe they can reach, and actually do so as Jim did.

And re rating it as a par 4, well given the distances we use for scratch, do you have a choice?  That is, in what reality could you get the scratch on the green in one shot (and those make Target value based on the tee shot)?

That was my point... that regardless of what Oakmont says o the card, the reality of course rating makes it a two-shot hole.

But please do clarify... I must be missing something else here.  Hey, it's the end of the season and I've only done 7 ratings this year.

 ;D

JohnV

Re:Changes at Oakmont
« Reply #49 on: October 20, 2005, 10:57:43 AM »
Thanks John, I always wondered how this was done.

So rating number 8 as a par 4 will give Oakmont an even higher course rating.

Are there plans to increase the yardage minimums due to technology?

It probably will have a very minimal effect if any and it might even give it a lower rating.  The Green Target value is based on the length of shot into the green.  If it was rated as a par three, that length would be 285 for the scratch and 85 for the bogey.  Rating it as a par 4 means it will be a 35 yard shot for the scratch and still 85 yards for the bogey.  The Green target will be much lower for the scratch than as a par 3.  This will cause other numbers to be lower also.  But, some numbers such as having a fairway rating will go up (don't have that on a par 3).  All the multipliers of these change also so I'm not sure how the rating will change, but it would be so minimal as to not matter.

There are no plans to increase the yardage numbers, although the definition of a scratch golfer might change.  Currently it is defined as what the average player who made match play at the US Amateur would shoot in his 10 best of 20 rounds.  But, it is now recognized that these players are usually plus handicaps so it is wrong to use them as the standard for a scratch golfer.  Changing that definition will bring the 250 yard scratch golfer closer to reality.  I played with a scratch golfer yesterday who hits it about 250 yards so they do exist.