[Mark_Rowlinson]

We have Tillinghast being asked to deliver a 'man-sized course' to Winged Foot.  Clearly he succeeded.  Who else has been given such a monumental task and succeeded so manifestly?  Who has exceeded such expectations?  Who has failed?

[Kyle Harris]

Mark,

I'd say Tillie delivered with Bethpage (All 3 courses he did) in that regard as well.

Not sure if Ross had a similar charge at Pinehurst, but if he did, then surely he succeeded.

[wsmorrison]

Mark,

It seems Flynn was tasked with creating three increasingly difficult nines at Huntingdon Valley CC.  I think he succeeded indeed.  It is an excellent golf course to which I hope you'll play during your next visit.

Flynn was instructed by Albert Lasker to build one of the most difficult golf courses in the country on his estate, Mill Road Farm.  It was 7000 yards in 1926.  Although tour pros visited regularly, par was not broken for eleven years until Tommy Armour finally did it after numerous tries.

Crump's self-appointed task was to build the country's most difficult golf course...the finished product certainly was that for many years.

[A_Clay_Man]

Success, Pete Dye-Pga west Stadium course.

Failure, Pete Dye- Ocean Trails?

[Jeff_Brauer]

I would love to hear if other designers on this site have ever gotten similarly simple briefs.  Some of my most memorable ones are:

My most memorable was at Wild Wing in MB, where I got a one statement brief from the Japanese Owner - "Lots of Fru Fru."

At Cowboys, Stephan Jones said "Traditional" and Jerry Jones added, "No Goofy Golf."

GR Quarry basically dictated the site, as it met their overall goals of mine reclamation.  They also noted that I should best my 8th place GD finish (although the Legend missed being first by not allowing walking)

The Wilderness at Fortune Bay instructed me to be closer to the Quarry in toughness, with less lost balls, but closer to the Legend in look. I think I suceeded there......

Tangle Ridge wanted a course that would be an icon for the city and spur development in their southern sector (although the course has no housing within it.)

Of course, many have said "Give me as much frontage as possible" including a new one I started designing yesterday.....Others say "Environmentally Friendly" but most of what we used to do to make courses special in that area are now SOP.  And there is always the generic best course you have ever built, best muni in the area, etc.

Anyone else got similar briefs?

[Tom_Doak]

Our client at Black Forest in Michigan, who owned a very easy and straightforward 18, told us he never wanted to hear that the course we built was too easy.

I doubt if anyone ever complained on that count.

[Patrick_Mucci]

Tom Doak,

Did Mike Keiser and/or Mike Pascucci give you an indication of what they wanted as a finished product ?

[Mark_F]

What is the 'perfect' design brief?

Is it do what you want any way you want?

Or do (some) clients have very valuable input?

[BCrosby]

Mark -

I'm not sure what you mean by succeeding at building a "man-sized course", but at one level that has to be the easiest of all assignments. Hard is not hard to design, I would think. Firestone, for example, was in its day as hard as any gof course in the world, but few now think of it as a great course. There are many other "hard" courses that people go out of their way not to play.

I haven't played it, but I imagine that what distinguishes WF is less its difficulty per se and more its interesting design.

Bob

[Doug Braunsdorf]

Mark Ferguson-

  While I can't answer your question as to what the 'perfect' design brief is, I have heard stories from both sides of the fence--and I think one can argue it from both sides; should the owner be actively directing the architect or should he serve as the conduit to let creative architecture create a fun to play, architecturally significant, and interesting golf course for its constituency?
  Pat had a post several months ago on owners with vision; I think in the cases he cited, these are people with a very clear and unique picture of what they would want to accomplish--and I think the results have been outstanding.  PV, Hidden Creek, Bandon, Whistling Straits, Sand Hills, just to name a few.  (There are other courses developed that are inspired as well and not listed here--these five places are not the only ones)
  For every inspired example, though, I have also seen some that really didn't resonate with me--they just seem to lack a certain something, and I couldn't help but think to myself "Why was this built, besides ego and having the means?  What does it contribute, and to whom?"
  Now, it's easy for us to sit here and armchair quarterback, quite another to actually be engaged in the process.  Thus, I'm trying to be careful of providing thoughts, opinions, and observations while not treading on the "Well, it has to be this way..." because I'm not a course developer, nor an architect.  But I have seen plenty and heard many stories to have my own opinion.  

[Gary_Nelson]

Paul Nine developed the Grand Traverse Resort in northern Michigan.  Mr. Nine made a request that Jack Nicklaus build a tough golf course.  He certainly succeeded because The Bear GC is a really tough track.

Below is an excerpt written by Mike Terrell and published in Michigan Golfer magazine:


=================================================
In a recent ineterview, Nine recalled those early days. "Marketing was the key to the success of such a venture, and golf was going to be the vehicle. I wanted the biggest name in golf and a course that would make a statement," said the flamboyant Nine. "There wasn't a bigger name at the time than Jack Nicklaus."

Purportedly he wanted the Golden Bear to build the toughest golf course he could, and they accomplished the feat. When The Bear was completed, it had a slope rating of 144 and a reputation to match. Completed in 1985, it set the tone for the plethora of golf courses that would follow in its wake.
=================================================

[Tom_Doak]

Pat:  No, I don't remember either Mike Keiser or Michael Pascucci trying to distill what they wanted into a short "design brief."  With Mike, in particular, it was more of an ongoing conversation, although he often spoke on behalf of what he called "the retail golfer."

The other design brief I remember was the one given to Pete Dye by Ernie Vossler of Landmark, for the Stadium Course at PGA West.  [I remember it because I was sitting in the room.]  He told Pete, "We don't want an ideal course.  We want the hardest golf course in the world.  We want a course so hard that people in Japan who have never been here will be complaining about how hard it is."  No ambiguity there!

[Jeff_Brauer]

I'm waiting for Forrest to jump in here, saying something like:

"I never get briefs, but I did get a design boxer once......"

JN talked about it in his book, that his first nine courses were all tournament caliber by owners dictum.  I I sometimes wonder, as do many of you, just how much JN listened early on, and how much was his mindset.  Later, he admits to designing differently, and listening to the client, albeit, also putting his expereince to work for him as well.

I say this, knowing that I have "sandbagged" a few clients by building better courses than they think they wanted.  I also know that in the recent period, no one has regretted it.  But, in this era, I wonder if that will change?   And, looking down the road, will that change back?  We may replay the Tillie rebuilding/bunker removal if the courses needs change, and then in 50 more years, the time may come to build the difficulty back in when conditions change - or membership roles get younger.

When you think about the changing role a golf course may face in a long life, it certainly does justify change in design, in all but a relatively few museum pieces, no?

[Lou_Duran]

Trump supposedly commissioned Fazio to build a course that one day could (maybe as opposed to would) hold a US Open- Trump National in NJ.  By my estimation, Fazio delivered on that promise.

I think that Tom Doak was hired to build the top collegiate course for Texas Tech.  Excluding places like Karsten Creek which is a university course only in the sense that it houses the OK State golf teams, but is private and not economically available to the students ($150+ green fees), Mr. Doak has arguably met the expectation.

[Craig Van Egmond]

Lou,

          Karsten is now $250.00.     If you play with a member its only $100.00.

[Tommy_Naccarato]

Mark,
What about James Cameron's immortal pitch for Titanic?

Legend has it that iconoclastic Cameron, who absolutely loathes these kinds of pitch meetings with studio brass, walked into a Paramount boardroom, sat down and said one line, Romeo & Juliet on the Titanic.

He then mysteriously got up and left the room and the meeting, not wanting to waste anymore of his time.

It was said by the time he got to where he parked his car, his office called him on his cell phone and told him that the studio brass had unanimously greenlighted the project.

Titanic would go on to be the highest grossing motion picture of all-time.

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