[Patrick_Mucci]

Is the slender, diagonal, well bunkered green the best defense in golf ?

What are some of the best examples of these greens ?

Why aren't more of them constructed ?

[Ted Kramer]

Is the slender, diagonal, well bunkered green the best defense in golf ?

What are some of the best examples of these greens ?

Why aren't more of them constructed ?

That is what makes #4 at Spyglass my favorite hole in all of golf.

-Ted

[Tommy_Naccarato]

Riviera #10, and its just not about the width vs. the length as well as protection around the green in the form of bunker(s) or crowned drop-offs. It's about the green itself--the contours and shaping in relation to the hole itself.  A great hole to look at in reverse.

Great topic. I'm sure Matt Ward will weigh in his thoughts.

[RJ_Daley]

17 Pebble Beach comes to mind...

[THuckaby2]

Pacific Dunes #6
Bandon Trails #14

To a lesser extent, Sand Hills #7

For the better golfer, this may well be the ultimate defense.  It's got to be that or very deep rough and very tight fairways.  Interestingly, I don't think it's in the top 5-6 defenses for the lesser golfer... anything directly penal (water, deep bunkers, etc.) hits him harder.

[Joe Hancock]

I thought the wind was the ultimate defense? Or, at least, I've heard that many times here.

I agree that diagonally situated greens present difficulties, mainly from a distance perpective.

At the Mines GC (#3), and at Greywalls (#14), those two greens are situated at diagonals, but the interesting thing on both of those approach shots is that they are uphill, bunkerless and nothing behind them to safeguard a long shot. Being bunkerless makes both shots more intimidating in my mind.

Joe

[CHrisB]

Is the slender, diagonal, well bunkered green the best defense in golf ?

Certainly one of the best defenses, especially when it is raised above its surrounds.

The infamous 11th at the Country Club of Charleston is a prime example.

[Mark_F]

Patrick,

Isn't any well-designed green a good defence?

I like narrow greens as per your hypothetical, but I would have said the plateau/knob-type green a'la 14 at Dornoch was as least as good a defence.

There's one at my home course which is an absolute nightmare to hit and hold, even without the greenkeeping staff's sadistic prediliction for putting the flag two inches from the left edge on occasion...

[Mark_Guiniven]

Is the slender, diagonal, well bunkered green the best defense in golf ?

I would say no because the slender, diagonal, well-bunkered green's defenses rely on too many assumptions:

That the green be firm.
That the breeze be up.

How many times do you encounter those conditions on different golf courses? I'd say it's extremely rare. Hence, it would seem that you are theorising and not putting the question into the realm of practical experience.

[Patrick_Mucci]

Mark Guiniven,

The green I described doesn't need the wind, but, if the wind is added, it makes it exponentially more difficult.

And, the green doesn't need to be firm.
The defenses still work with less than firm conditions, although, like the wind, when added to the mix, the green defends itself better.

Mark Ferguson,

I don't know what would qualify as a well designed green, and if that qualification would automatically translate to good defense.

I do know that the slender, diagonal green with surrounding bunkers complicates club selection, alignment, trajectory, feel and fear.

Joe Hancock,

You can't guarantee that the wind will blow every day.
You can guarantee the configuration of the green and its surrounds.

If the wind is prevalent, that's the icing on the cake.

The 13th at Pine Tree is one of those greens, and, the wind usually blows from the southeast.

I give first time guests two to one odds on hitting the green from 130 yards.   If the wind is blowing from the north (downwind) I increase the odds to five to one.

It's a great hole that diminishes the influence of technology and power.

[A_Clay_Man]

And, the green doesn't need to be firm.
The defenses still work with less than firm conditions, although, like the wind, when added to the mix, the green defends itself better.

In Monte's post round interview yesterday he stated that the firmness of the greens are what makes it more challenging. He added that recently, "they" play too many soft targets, implying it's made easier.

[Patrick_Mucci]

Adam Clayman,

There's a lot of latitude between "soft" and "firm"

Noone that I've run across on this site advocates soft greens,
But, when it's 95 degrees, with 90 humidity, in the summer, you're going to be hard pressed to find concrete hard greens.

Theory is nice, but, the reality is that the playing field must yield to Mother Nature and the Prudent Man Rule.

Where possible firm greens are preferable.

The problem is, they provide too much of a challenge to the membership who like their suped up golf balls.

They want the ball to stop on a dime, even when hit from the rough.

The huge mistake that clubs are making is that they're narrowing their fairways and growing their rough, instead of firming up the entire golf course.

[Mark_Guiniven]

Oh you need firmness Pat, and you need breeze too. Otherwise Monty's gonna drop his soft-fade moon balls down on your slender, diagonal, well-bunkered green all day long. And that ain't a pretty sight I can tell you.

[Jason Blasberg]

Is the slender, diagonal, well bunkered green the best defense in golf ?

What are some of the best examples of these greens ?

Why aren't more of them constructed ?

At Seawane #10 is slender and angled front left to back right . . . it is fronted by a menacing grass faced bunker and has a run off closely mown area behind.  The hole is only about 350 from the new back tee and I double it more than I par it.  The hole usually plays with a helping wind that quarters over your right shoulder so holding the green from the rough is very difficult.  In addition, if you don't hit the fairway that dog legs slightly right you have a blind shot over one of either cavernous bunkers flanking both sides of the fairway as it pinches in to a very narrow opening about 260 yards off the tee.    

[Patrick_Mucci]

Mark Guiniven,

Outside of barbed wire, mine fields and machine gun nests, I don't think you can defend the greens from Monty and his peers.

I'm referencing everyday golfers, from plus 2 to 36 handicappers.

All too often we speak of architecture in terms of the best players in the world rather than the core players.

[CHrisB]

Actually the ultimate defense in my mind may be the crowned green with runoffs on all sides.

Did you see the pin on the 18th hole at Harding Park for the AMEX yesterday? It was on the very front right "upside-down bowl" section of the green, and guys like Vijay, Tiger and Daly all missed that green with wedges from the fairway. Others who missed the fairway had an even tougher time (didn't they say only 1 player in 5 hit that green?).

Combine the concept with fairway cut around the greens (e.g. Pinehurst) and tough bunkering and you've got a great defense that will give the better player fits, but will be playable for everyone.

[A_Clay_Man]

Pat, You need not tell me about those types of conditions. I currently reside in an area where it's well over 90 degrees with way less than 30% humidity, for over a hundred days in row, every year.

My take, is that there is a fine line between soft and firm.

But the majority of supers err on the side of too soft, and for understanable reasons. Green green green $ $ $

I honestly believe there is much more merit in the natural approach to watering. Mimic nature, if you will. Which leads to a more enjoyable round of golf, for more numbers of people.  all that needs to be done is allowing a course to somewhat dry-out, before re-issueing more H2O.
That, is not every morning. Even here. Ideally, the course would go through mini-transitional phases every week. As opposed to just seasonally.

Another mistake many seem to make, is not tweaking down thier amounts of water, once there are the cooler nights that the late summer provides.

But back to topic, specifically the title of the thread. "The ultimate" is a bit mis-leading, and gets people to think about making matters much harder. Perhaps reasonable should be added after ultimate?

[Mark_Guiniven]

Well Pat if you have to disqualify professional golfers from testing your design it can hardly be considered ultimate can it?

If we were talking ultimate military defenses would you be disqualifying professional soldiers too?

I just used Monty because Adam brought him up. Truth is I think any scratch player would nullify such a green with standard aerial play.

And we're all going to put those little prisms on the flagsticks to make it even easier for them.

[Patrick_Mucci]

Marc Guiniven,

I didn't disqualify them, you did.

It's just that my focus was on non-PGA Tour players.

However, it would seem like the slender, diagonal, bunkered green at # 12 at ANGC gives them fits every year.

So it would seem that the concept works exceedingly well for every level of golfer

Adam Clayman,

It's got nothing to do with money.

It's got to do with the Superintendent being a paid employee of the club, reportable to the green chairman, board and President.

The superintendent can't make decisions independent of his superiors if he want to retain his job.

The reality is that the superintendent is usually providing the product that the members want, to the degree that Mother Nature co-operates.

Chris Brauner,

Think of the issue in terms of what amateur golfers face, not the PGA Tour Pros.

[David_Elvins]

Pat,

What are some examples of thin diagonal greens?  Do any of them have really interesting contours in them or are they often so small that they are relatively flat?  I am interested in your (and others) opinion as to whether the supposed dificulty in hitting these  green is diluted by the fact that they are often easy to putt on and play recovery shots onto due to the fact that they are relatively flat.  Do they challenge players to be creative around the greens and execute difficult recovery shots or do they, like the 12th at Augusta that you mentioned, rely on penal hazards to make them challenging?

[Patrick_Mucci]

David Elvins,

Of the greens cited, that I'm familiar with, I'd have to agree with you with respect to their relatively flat nature.

I would think that contouring would make them excessively difficult.

The 12th at ANGC, the 10th at Riviera, the 13th at Pine Tree,
the 17th at Pebble Beach are relatively flat.

The 4th at Spyglass is a three tiered green, almost three greens in one, so it has that additional feature, plus, the winds off the Pacific Ocean add to the challenge.

That green is also very large when compared to some of the others, and I think you have to take size into consideration.

A larger green would seem to accomodate internal contouring  better than a small green.

As to the challenge ending once you've reached the putting surface, I don't know that I'd agree with that due to several factors.  Some of these greens have good pitch to them, others are long diagonally, which puts a premium on approach putting if you're not close to the pin.

If substantive internal contouring were added, it would shrink the green to miniature greens within greens, similar to the 1st green at NGLA.  And that might be excess for holes longer than 100 yards.

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