Daily Fee Facility - Included in Green Fee?

[rjsimper]

As I sit here combing through all courses within 90 miles of Santa Monica trying to find out which ones have unlimited range balls included with the green fees (anyone know any?) I find myself wondering if there is any tried and true formula or theory for determining whether or not to include certain extras in the green fee.

Certainly, the golf cart inclusion has made inroads into the SOP for the non-municipal, public golfing masses, but what about including other things like range balls, yardage books, GPS, etc.

Are the courses who include unlimited range balls with greens fees doing it because competitors do it?  Are they raising their green fees 5 bucks over what they might otherwise be? Do they feel that they are more profitable including them instead of charging individually?

If I take a client to Strawberry Farms, I am dropping 105 bucks for the green fee, plus 10 bucks for range balls, and 5 for a yardage book...the 105 dollar round is a misnomer because this is in actuality a 120 dollar round.

So, if they started charging 110/round and throwing this stuff in, are they losing money in the long run?

Just a little strategic planning question, I guess...part of me wonders why every course that maintains any semblance of a "pro shop" doesnt get those little yardage books made.  At 5 bucks a pop, it doesn't seem like it would take long to get into the black on that little investment.

[Andy Troeger]

I can only think of one or two courses around here (NW Indiana) that include range balls, and that's only on weekends. Seems like something the higher-end places do all the time, but you do make a good point that by including it you make the $5 of every player whether they use it or not (same with the yardage book, although the only place I've played that included that was Whistling Straits...and for what they charge its not exactly a steal!).

[Brian Noser]

Ryan,

when we played at Talking Stick they had range balls and yardage books for both corses and we only payed.... well i do not remember but it was not that expensive. But when we went to the TPC we had to pay for the range and no yardage books we paid more.  I think? It can be done. I guess I can see some people like your self, the range machine wanting to pay 5 or 10 bucks extra but some others the increase in price if they know what it is for or not it will not impress them. Me i like the little extra perks. But if Rustic Canyon would raise there price 10 bucks for me to get extra range balls and a yardage book I would be upset cause I would play there all the time and have to many books. just my 2 cents

[PThomas]

I always feel a little ripped off whenever I pay $100 or more to play -- and then I have to give them $5 more to hit balls

just add it into the fee , for crying out loud!

[Matt_Ward]

Ryan:

Paul is 1000% on target.

People don't mind paying -- a reasonable fee -- but when you have multiple hands picking their pockets for a whole assortment of items from the time they arrive at the course until they leave it becomes a bit of overkill and clearly gouging at the worst.

I see no reason why facilities can't provide the following at one green fee ...

1). The 18 hole round
2). The Cart if desired (walking should remain an option provided the site allows for it).
3). Range Balls
4). Yardage Book
*Tips to various people are optional and left to the discretion of the player.

Frankly, I don't see why some facilities throw in a credit for a drink and hot dog provided you buy "X" dollars of supplies during the time there.

Places that show respect to their customers are the ones most likely to see them return.

[Brent Hutto]

I think a freebie yardage book at anything other than a resort course could be a waste. Once you've played there three or four times I doubt you want another yardage book (although they're probably quite cheap once their production is paid for).

As for including unlimited range balls in the green fee, the big advantage of that is not having to either schlep a bucket of balls from the proshop or somewhere out to the range or mess with tokens and a vending machine. Having the golf course staff keep a supply of range balls at the range ready to be used without any shuttling back and forth by the player is a substantial value added to the experience, IMO.

My ideal golf course experience would be to take my own clubs out of the trunk, walk straight to the driving range or practice green and then walk straight to the first tee. Anything that streamlines that process is a big, big plus in my book. Having someone want to take my clubs is a distraction, having to run around and obtain range balls is a distraction, having to mess with a golf cart is a distraction, having to check in with both a pro shop and a starter is a distraction.

A major distraction is a course where the parking lot, pro shop, starter, practice green, driving range, men's room and first tee are each separated by several hundred yards. Some places if you don't have a cart you end up walking the equivalent of five or six holes from the time you arrive in the parking lot until you actually start playing golf. I'm not saying it's the end of the world but simplicity is a virtue. Golf is supposed to be about walking on the fairway and hitting shots, time spent wandering around buildings and parking lots is time wasted.

[Jeff_Brauer]

The short answer is they are responding to competition - whether by following the crowd or going another direction.  

Of course, the new wave should be GPS on the cart, but courses have had trouble selling that as a $5 extra, while yardage books usually sell with no problem.  I like them as souvenirs of my visit, and can't take the cart home with me.  

For the nice books, with the photorealistic depictions, the intial set up cost to get the helicopter to fly it, do the enhancements, design the book, etc. can be pricey. I think it might run $35K, which only my high dollar courses can afford.  I don't know what % of golfers buy them, but it would take at least 7K to buy them to break even, and that is assuming that many are in the first printing......

Here in DFW, Cowboys pioneerd the "All you can" green fee and others followed for a while.  Then, they began to realize that at moderate price points, golfers can feel a little ripped off by having everything included in the price, given they don't always use the range extensively, etc.  Most would prefer to pay as they go for extras to feel like they have some control of their discretionary money.  

I have to believe that if you feel you are paying too much for golf for what you get, you will likely find a way to not like the greens fee structures, even after allowing for the fact that anything we like, we generally feel should be a bit less expensive......

[Steve Lapper]

Ryan:

Paul is 1000% on target.

People don't mind paying -- a reasonable fee -- but when you have multiple hands picking their pockets for a whole assortment of items from the time they arrive at the course until they leave it becomes a bit of overkill and clearly gouging at the worst.

I see no reason why facilities can't provide the following at one green fee ...

1). The 18 hole round
2). The Cart if desired (walking should remain an option provided the site allows for it).
3). Range Balls
4). Yardage Book
*Tips to various people are optional and left to the discretion of the player.

Frankly, I don't see why some facilities throw in a credit for a drink and hot dog provided you buy "X" dollars of supplies during the time there.

Places that show respect to their customers are the ones most likely to see them return.

Matt,

The "All-in Deal" you advocate has a few flaws. But before I expose them, let me say I agree with you that 15-25 balls should accompany the greens fee and no more (thats all that is needed to adequately warm up).

1) Carts are a very expensive capital item on any operator's budget. Gas or electricity, along with oil and upkeep is a large # for a fleet of over 50. Additionally, they need to be serviced and periodically replaced. Cart suppliers typically program into these machines timed obsolescence and the repair v. replace decision gets skewed considerably earlier in the equation than would otherwise exisit in most other transportation equipment.
2) Ranges, if they serve two masters (the course and the general public), consume time and need considerable turnover to make profitability. Interestingly, new (BUT VERY EXPENSIVE) equipment have lessened the need on human labor and cut loss and leakage considerably. If the range is a simple warm-up area for the course, balls should be given inside the single fee. If not, there is a real loss of revenue occurs when non round players are left to wait for those who spend 30min prior to teeing off banging balls.
3) Yardage books are pro and con...typically realtively cheap in basic form, they actually slow play and contribute to pace problems. Many people spend too much time trying to "calculate" where the hell they are and where they want to go and start slowing down the pace. They can get very expensive when done with "flyovers" and five colors.
4) GPS is a frigging joke...very expensive, very unreliable and unstable and actually does not speed up pace of play much, if at all. Simply not worth it.
5) It's dumb business to try to sell 10-16% margin(net) goods(retail) and rewarding such sales with the concession of 25-40% margin items (F&B)...Doesn't make any sense unless you reverse it.

Jeff said it best in not trying to oversell the customer with things they won't use, but instead giving them a la carte choices.

Daily fee course don't make that much $$ in this market (unless they have fabulous round counts, outings and superb  F&B operations). They need to optimize their profitability by identifying and minimizing their most costly and least profitable micro businesses(must be value-add to the customer) and maximize their best internal margin biz's.

Don't forget the embedded costs of customer acquisition that must become "recaptured" by sale-through of other services. Keeping is customer is usually best accomplished by execution and "replay/loyalty" programs, not free drinks and tschotkes.

Just m ;Dy humble opinion

[RJ_Daley]

Every course design set up regarding the location of the range and practice putting or chipping green is different.  As pointed out above, some are so far away, that having players jerk around going to and fro before they even get on the course, sets a bad pace and trend.  

Every market is different as well, that has also been noted above.  Some courses may be expected to provide these little ammenities like range balls and yardage books.  I guess you just have to go by the competition.  But, one yardage book is all you need and repeat play is a waste of time and money to produce them for repeat players.  A small sack or mini bucket of 20 -25 balls is plenty.  That ought to be provided free or for about $2 dollars.

The really important ammenity in my opinion are things to encourage folks to linger after the round.  An appetizer bar (for about $2-3 you actually charge in green fees over the lowest possible market price) and a club house atmosphere that makes an expectation or tradition for the locals and those non-residents that want to experience your unique presentation of the 19th hole, is a better way to go, IMHO.

[Dan_Callahan]

While the all-inclusive can be very convenient, two aspects that bug me (and are starting to pop up at high-end courses in my area):

1) Not getting a reduced rate for walking. If my greens fee includes a cart, I'm going to take the cart even though I prefer to walk. Sounds stupid, but I'm stubborn and it's the principle of the thing;

2) Not being able to pay for 9 holes. Makes no sense and kills the late-afternoon, run-out-after-work-before-the sun-sets-in-the-fall round that sometimes results in the most enjoyable golf of the year.

[rjsimper]

The really important ammenity in my opinion are things to encourage folks to linger after the round.  An appetizer bar (for about $2-3 you actually charge in green fees over the lowest possible market price) and a club house atmosphere that makes an expectation or tradition for the locals and those non-residents that want to experience your unique presentation of the 19th hole, is a better way to go, IMHO.

In my searches, I found that the 19th hole at Arroyo Trabuco (a new Daily Fee facility in Southern Orange County) serves your first post-round beer for the price, in pennies, equal to your score on the day.  Shot 76?  $0.76 for that beer.  Had a rough day and chopped your way to a 112?  $1.12 for some suds makes you feel a bit better.

Nice touch says me.
 

[Mark_Rowlinson]

On this side of the Atlantic there has been a proliferation of pay-and-play golf facilities occasioned by the collapse of agriculture.  I guess most of them are at the low cost end.  Typically around here you pay about £8 for 9 holes.  Even the most primitive of these seem to have commercially-run driving ranges with a bucket of 50 balls costing around £2.50, the range being open to all comers.  Some of these ranges have useful practice additions such as sand bunkers and most are prettified with targets, hoops for pitching into and so on.  Very often there is some sort of refreshment facility offering coffee and sandwiches and the bright ones are open to non-golfers for lunch.  One intelligent local course makes its clubhouse available for wedding receptions, community meetings and that sort of thing.  The one thing that is very different about almost all of these is that their greens will be in pretty lamentable condition.  Were they to spend the money to upgrade their greens they would have to charge £30 or more for 18 holes and that would put them into the price bracket of the second-tier private clubs and the competition would be fierce.  If you don't want to pay £2.50 to hit 50 balls on the range before play there is almost certainly a net somewhere and you can hit your own to your heart's desire.

Not all our private clubs are over expensive even in these inflationary times: three of us played Delamere Forest the other day - £40 green fee.  Not too expensive for such a lovely course.  I looked in at Prestatyn on Wednesday (unfortunately not to play) which is a genuine championship links with some excellent holes - £25 a round mid week, that's all.

[THuckaby2]

That Arroyo Trabuco idea is really cool!  

Closest thing I've seen to that in NorCal is at the not-so-beautiful and not-so-challenging Manteca Muni, they give you a large order of fries free with your first beer.  I call it my dream come true.

 

As for free range balls with the green fee, that is a nice touch, but of course that is just factored into the green fee price, as is all this stuff.  Of course it's a different story at really high end places, where you're paying a huge fee to begin with and feel nickeled and dimed if they charge you for anything else... but at most courses, I'd just as soon pay for what I actually use.  If I've played a course once already, I sure as hell don't need a yardage guide again... and the last thing I need are more bag tags.... and hell, damn near all the time I don't warm up much anyway, so range balls aren't any big deal....

[Mike Benham]

Heck, even my club charges me for range balls ...

[RJ_Daley]

Ryan, that's a good one.  Darn, I had a couple of really bad days Wed., and Thurs, and it would have cost me $1.83 for my last two rounds!  Of course I needed a couple more $7 pitchers of Amber Bock to sooth my ego.  

[Mike_Golden]

Heck, even my club charges me for range balls ...

Yeah, but the views from your range alone are worth paying for the token

[Matt_Ward]

Real simple solution -- provide two different options for the customer.

You can have a pay-all one time approach and you can have the individual items broken out for those who opt in that direction -- including walking.

There's nothing wrong with having the driving range option included and be more than just 15 balls. C'mon Steve -- you sound like a prospective course owner who is leaning more towards the Ebeneezer Scrooge mentality.

P.S. Slow play doesn't come from yardage books -- it comes from ineffectual management groups that run golf courses. A yardage book is not going to be the key culprit for slow play. The issue rests with consistent and timely action by management.

Steve - visit any number of courses that are CCFAD's in Florida, Nevada and Arizona and the value-added options I mentioned produce even more dollars spent by the customer. Those facilities that seek to milk each and every item -- including tees -- usually piss off more people and guarantee that return rounds will be less of a reality.

[Steve Lapper]

Matt,

   I don't disagree with your option...option. It can be confusing for many but if well communicated, a certain value add and evidence of respect for your customer.

   I really do, however, disagree with you re: driving range but I do subject it to the test of the purpose of the range. If for warm-up, then perhaps more balls inc. If not, and the range has its own clientele and is a meaningful profit center, you have to protect that from abuse and limit your round player to a decent minimum

   Slow play comes from a whole lot of places (including, but not limited to ineffectual management). CCFAD's in sunny climes are a completely different animal than those operations we see regularly...they are managed for incremental and exponential gains and ignore much of the "at-the-margin" profits that are a greater part of Northeast DF's.

Ebeneezer I won't wont be..but prudent and thoughtful most definitely!

[Matt_Ward]

Steve:

Slow play starts and ends with management. Few places that I have ever played -- svae those across the pond being the chief exception -- really take a diligent point of attack on this topic. They are fast to punch the Master / Visa card numbers into the register but out-to-lunch once the players hit the course.

The inmate don't run the aslyum unless management allows them to do so.

Players are like cattle -- if management lays out the particulars in a consistent manner with 24/7 follow-up the issue of slow play will not happen.

P.S. People appreciate not being nickeled and dimed to death. If you have a different scale of membership that allows the core players to use the range and one for those who are not frequent users of the facility it can and does work.

[Steve Lapper]

AHHHHH...now we are talking...I guess I'll look better as Nurse Ratchet than Mr. Scrooge.

Yes, slow play starts with "slow" managment, but it also has roots with poor course design and excessive hazards and distance.

You can have your pills now!

[JohnV]

Yes, slow play starts with "slow" managment, but it also has roots with poor course design and excessive hazards and distance.

Then why do many older munis with short walks from greens to tees, few hazards and not a lot of distance play so slowly?

The main cause of slow play at most courses is that management tries to cram to many rounds into the day.  7/8 minute tee times are the biggest culprit.

[Matt_Ward]

Steve:

Allow me to list certain elements of management ignorance / stupidty on the subject of slow play. They may come in handy when you start your venture in Old Bridge.

*Poorly trained staff -- too many retirees are clueless as rangers / starters. They are either too busy searching for balls or keeping an eye on the teen girls at the pool. They also need to be adequately trained on how to approach the public. The salty language approach doesn't cut it as it did when they were in the Marines.

*John touched upon this in his previous post -- plan tee time intervals reasonably. Anything less than 10 minutes is suicide. The reality is that the following group should not be allowed to tee off until the group ahead is literally walking onto the first green.

*Have management cover with rangers those holes where the probability of issues happening is high. Tell groups to play lost balls from the probable area where the ball was lost instead of re-teeing with provisional balls and the like.

*Keep the hustling drinks and food cart brigade to a minimum. Management often looks to shake down people for a few more bucks and spends little time in rewarding people for swift play. The more people stop when playing the overall times only get longer and longer. If a group routinely cannot keep up they should be penalized for it when they book their next tee time.

*Constant monitoring. Too many courses automatically assume that the pace of play you get from the first few groups will be the same as for those who tee up later in the day. The best courses for speed I have ever played constantly monitor the pace of play and are proactive in dealing with it -- no matter the offender and his relationships with those at the course.

[wsmorrison]

"Tell groups to play lost balls from the probable area where the ball was lost instead of re-teeing with provisional balls and the like."

The rules of golf should be subordinated to expedited play?  Are you serious?  Are you trying to bifurcate public golf from private golf?  Or maybe it is New Jersey golf from the rest of the world?  Whatever it is, it is a poorly considered idea.  Play by the rules everywhere and always.  Otherwise it is not golf.

[Steve Lapper]

Matt,

  Much of what you outline is right: training;rangers;F&B Cart;Constant Monitoring.

  I do have some disagreement with you and John about tee spacing. Unfortunately, revenue is driven by how many rounds you can sell and position and in order to attain financial and operation success, maximization of round count is your most important metric. Granted, management should absolutely positively spend considerable energy to space groups out but 8 min rounds are not suicide on a booking basis. It is done effectively by combining sensible course and amenity design and WISE management adaptibility (judging the pace of seperation). I agree that 6 min is too tight, but a 385 yd (back tee) par 4 with a very wide fairway amply allows a mid-level handicapper the chance to get to his ball in 3-5 min. post swing and hit again and walk forward out of range.

  Most interestingly, Bethpage Black operates on a REAL 8 minute interval and that course is exponentially tougher to both make the first and following swings.

[Doug Siebert]

Damn, this is a terrible idea!  Its bad enough that the cart I don't want is included (and required)  Now I'm supposed to arrive a half hour or more earlier to hit some balls because you guys want them included?  And I have to pay for a yardage book, even if I've played there before and maybe even remembered to bring it along?  Why not go all the way and include food at the turn, two drinks a nine from the beer wench and a pitcher of beer after the round in your "one price fits all" heaven?  Maybe toss in a free shoeshine everyone pays for whether they have shineable shoes or not, a tip for the locker room attendant even if you show up dressed for golf and don't forget a tip for that ever useless guy who takes your bag from your when you exit the parking lot and walks it 10 feet to a waiting cart!

Bring on the $200 round!  Better make that $199.95, people who prefer one price for everything are probably the same people who are fooled by knocking a penny or nickel off the price to make it seem lower