Rye and its sleeper walls

[Neil_Crafter]

Hi all
I am in the throes of writing a small feature for the next issue of our Golf Architecture magazine on the unique railway sleeper (railway tie) walls that feature prominently around a number of the greens at Rye (UK). Does anybody have any idea of the history of these features? Who might have been responsible for putting them in and when?

For those who are not aware of them, these small walls, around a foot high or so are placed a few metres back from the green and comprise vertical sections of railway sleepers embedded into the turf, with their primary purpose being to act as chipping hazards. If the wall is between you and the hole, put the putter or six iron away - you'll need at least a wedge to chip over the low wall.

Are these unique in the world of golf? I have not seen any other course with features like these and I'd be interested in people's views on the value of such funky hazards as these.

cheers Neil

[Marc Haring]

Neil

It’s not a great picture but you can just make them out at the front of this the seventh green. I always thought they were filled in sand bunkers but clearly not. I’m not sure but did I not recollect seeing a couple at Deal or Littlestone.

[Andy Levett]

There's at least one down the road at Littlestone (the 3rd?). I'll dig out a snap tonight. Littlestone is actually the older course but I'm afraid I have no idea of the origins of the hazard.
Reading Darwin, it appears that before the days of piped irrigation the playing surfaces of links tended to lose their turf  and revert  towards sand in occasional hot,dry summers. Could sunken sleeper walls support and  stabilise greenside banks and even help retain sub-surface moisture?

[James Edwards]

Andy, Marc,

Yes, the Par 5, 5th at Littlestone has this feature by the green on the right hand side.

[Mark_Guiniven]

Neil,
Someone posted a wonderful picture of such a green at Rye a few months ago. The little sleeper looked the only thing wrong in the image and a few posters were having trouble figuring out what it was. I believe the same green is featured in GAV3 p154. Just bizarre if that's what they are.

[Brent Hutto]

Reading Darwin, it appears that before the days of piped irrigation the playing surfaces of links tended to lose their turf  and revert  towards sand in occasional hot,dry summers. Could sunken sleeper walls support and  stabilise greenside banks and even help retain sub-surface moisture?

I know nothing of golf course building and maintenance but I've used railroad ties for exactly the purpose you describe in the yard of our first house. The neighborhood was atop a dry sandhill and the edge of our front yard sloped down toward the road. I buried one railroad tie completely below ground and left another that sticking up a couple inches and then backfilled on the high side with soil (sandy loam) and then sod to level with the top of the "sleeper". It ended up looking a lot like the pictures I've seen of Rye. From the road you could see a few inches of "sleeper"  and then below it the sod thrived without washing back into sandy hardpan in the summer.

[Mark_Guiniven]

This was the thread here although Andy would have to reset the image before it will show.

Why would you want to discourage chipping or putting from off the green anyway? I guess fescue is just another world. Here in NZ it's the opposite with mushy poa, you never see anyone decent land anything on the fringe unless there's no other choice. Mind you, all that putting at St. Andrews this year was pretty boring. Perhaps the key to shortgame variety is, er, variety  

[Craig Disher]

The sleeper on #5 at Littlestone was put there fairly recently after a pot buker at that location was removed. That area tends to be wet and the sleeper was used to keep the right side of the green in place. Not many members like it there - I've seen shots carom off it into the deep rough, a slightly unfair result. The sleeper also eliminates the ground game from that side of the green - but it can force a shot not many members like to play, lob wedge off a (very) tight lie.

The 7th and 14th greens at Rye also have similar sleepers. They also may have been inserted to stabilize the slope off the green.  The one at the 14th is a hazard much like the one at Littlestone but the sleeper at 7 isn't in play from around the green. The slope is too severe. However, it can send an unlucky tee shot right back at you.

[Andy Levett]

This is the sleeper hazard I was thinking of at Littlestone, taken from the right of the green and featuring an august group of GCAers.

[Tiger_Bernhardt]

The President of the club asked me my opinion of them when I was there 2 years ago. We had a spirited discussion on their virtue. I really did not think such as natural course needed them but his point about creating short game option or in that case remocving s afew was solid.

[Mike Hendren]

Why do I love the stone wall at Pit, but loathe the sleepers pictured?  Tomato stakes and chicken-wire might be a nice compromise.

Mike

[Tom_Doak]

Neil:

We actually built a similar 18-inch high sleeper wall beside one of the greens at The Legends (Heathland) course in Myrtle Beach many years ago, after seeing the ones at Rye.  It's a very effective little device to make you pitch the ball out of a grassy hollow, instead of running it up with a putter as I will do whenever possible.

I don't know how they originated at Rye.  I will look in their club history tomorrow and see if it's mentioned.

[Neil_Crafter]

The holes I noted at Rye that featured these sleeper walls were mostly par threes.
2nd par 3 - left of the green between two bunkers
3rd par 4 - short right of green at top of a grassy hollow
7th par 3 - short of the green, a pair of walls between the putting surface and a bunker
14th par 3 - right of the green
Least these are the ones I noted when I was there in 1995.

Marc, I'm not sure if there is much physical retaining of soil done by these walls as they are rather low, but Craig thinks the Littlestone one was put there to help hold up the right side of the green. Perhaps this is part of their reasoning at Deal but it doesn't look to me like they are needed for that reason at Rye. Could be wrong.

Thanks Andy for the photo of the wall at Littlestone - this is quite similar to the one at the right of the green at Rye's 14th. Craig, interesting you mention that this was put there fairly recently, so they must have copied the ones at Rye down the road.

Tom, had a sneaking suspicion that you liked these, as I read your write up of Rye in the Gourmet's Choice section of the Guide. Even though you didn't mention them specifically, I knew you held their par 3s in high regard. Please send me a photo of the wall you built in Myrtle Beach so I can include it in my piece. Appreciate it too if you could see if they are mentioned in Rye's club history - thanks.

Mark, yes the chip and run or putt option is taken away from you but as there are relatively few of these walls it is unlikely you would encounter more than one or two a round, and they do add to variety by forcing the lofted shot. Plenty of other occasions where you can play the run up shot unimpeded.

Bogey, the stone walls at North Berwick were there long before the course and the course laid out over and around them - they are a very dominant feature of the landscape there. Hard to compare them with the few low timber walls at Rye in either scale or extent. Clearly they are man made and inserted into the landscape, but I still think they are fun and quirky and add something to Rye (not that it needs adding to)

[Tom_Doak]

Neil:

I just remembered that Pete Dye used a low wall on a couple of holes at The Golf Club back in 1967.  I don't think these were inspired by Rye, because if I remember correctly, he wasn't familiar with the course when I showed him pictures of it in 1984.  [He hadn't seen Cruden Bay or Royal West Norfolk then, either.]

[Neil_Crafter]

Andy
Would you be so kind as to email me a higher resolution file of that photo of Littlestone, as with your permission, I'd like to use it in my article. My address is:
neil@golfstrategies.com.au
I will credit you for the photograph
cheers Neil

[Tiger_Bernhardt]

Tom I did get the impression this was done within the last 20 years.

[Tom_Doak]

According to the Rye club history, the sleepers on the 14th were installed by Sir Guy Campbell when he redesigned the hole in 1938.  

[Neil_Crafter]

Thanks for that info Tom - any stuff in the history book about when they installed the others on 2, 3 and 14? Presumably later. Do they give any insight into Campbell's design intent when he installed them?
Neil

[ForkaB]

http://www.golfclubatlas.com/forums2/index.php?board=1;action=display;threadid=16337;start=0

Neil

FYI, above is an older and slightly more robust discussion of the topic in which you have an interest.

Cheers

Rich

[Neil_Crafter]

Rich, thanks for the heads up to that older thread, must have missed it the first time round. Guess there are not many topics that haven't been dealt with before at some time. Some interesting viewpoints as one would expect.
Neil