[Peter_Herreid]

As a veteran of the weekend wars at Harding Park vintage 1988-1994, I'm still in somewhat of a state of disbelief that there will be an important pro tourney there this week, even after seeing it in evolution last year...

Has anyone been out there in the last couple of weeks to give feedback on the state of the rough, green speeds, etc?

I suspect the atmosphere will be terrific, particularly if they get some low-lying fog, for example, but it still seemed as if they could fire a lot of darts at the greens, even with pins tucked...

Too bad they can't bunch 'em all together in the old shop and make them jockey for tee times, figure out which guy to slip money to, how to chip over the standing water on the greens, bank one off the metal fence on #1 or #12 (did they take the balls down that were wedged into the fence by the tee?), navigate the trash on the side of the lake on #10, etc... Perhaps I'll get lucky and see Tiger have to try to stop his downswing in the middle of a Muni bus screech by #11/12/13, or during gunfire (or is that Gleneagles?).  Will they have people "camping out" (or whatever the kids call it these days) near the hole in the fence by #14 tee?...  I wonder if the city workers still take a (ahem) "cigarette" break in the woods to the right of #15/left of #9...

Ah the good ol' days!  When a round at Harding was experience for all 5 senses...

[David_Tepper]

Peter -

Read Ron Kroichick's article in today's SF Chronicle:

http://sfgate.com/sports/

I think how tough the course plays will all depend on the weather. If it is sunny and the wind blows, the course will firm up and the winning score could be in the -5 to -10 range (par 70). If the fog comes in (like it was this past weekend), the greens will be softer and the winning score could be -15 or more.

The one thing the course has going for it is that none of the guys have played it before. I am planning to go out tomorrow for the practice round. It will be interesting to see how they go about figuring the course out.

DT  

[Mike Benham]

Perhaps I'll get lucky and see Tiger have to try to stop his downswing in the middle of a Muni bus screech by #11/12/13, or during gunfire (or is that Gleneagles?).  

Good question, the Pacific Rod and Gun Club is open on Saturday and Sunday (11:00 AM - 5:00 PM).  Perhaps the PGA Tour or AmEx have made a nice donation to their Junior Program to keep the gunfire to a minimum for the tournament weekend.

Panoramic of Harding Park holes 14 - 17 from across Lake Merced]

[Kevin_Reilly]

Has anyone been out there in the last couple of weeks to give feedback on the state of the rough, green speeds, etc?

A tall lefty with a smooth swing was out there recently.  Maybe he will see this thread, if he's not focused intently on the upcoming Bear-Bruin game.

[Bill_McBride]

Peter, you'll be pleased to know that things weren't much different back in the '50s and '60s!

[David_Tepper]

I am just in from watching the Wednesday practice rounds. Based on what I saw, the course might play tougher than I thought. I did not see anyone play either of the par-5's, so I don't know how reachable they are.

It is surprising how much length they have been able to add to some of the holes, such as #8, which is playing 230 yards. Everyone I saw was hitting 5-wood/utility club there.

We have had 3 sunny days now, which should firm up the greens quite a bit. In terms of speed, the greens were not super fast. It is still hard to believe this event is actually happening at Harding.

The only other comment is that seeing Peter Lonard is person is a bit of a shock. His shoulders are HUGE!    

[Lynn_Shackelford]

The have reduced par from 72 to 70.  They have the rough pretty high (last seen by me about 3 weeks ago), but not enough to bother the greats ones from 100 yards.  So the winning score will be in the neighborhood of 263 to 270.  Sandy Tatum will declare victory, the players will enjoy "the city" and the fans get to see a great field.  You won't see much interesting shot making, just fire at the flags whether in the rough or fairway.  As for the Bruins and the Bears, its the Bruins talent against the Bears' superior coaching.  Usually talent prevails.  So I go with the Bruins and Tiger.

[Joel_Stewart]

Tiger hit driver - 8 iron on #9 yesterday.  Both par 5's are reachable.  The course will be very pretty on TV and they are already promoting the course as a public golf course, the peoples course.  One horrible writer for the Chronicle (Scott Ostler) talked about how ethnic the crowd is.

I never under estimate how good these guys are (I should patent that statement) and think the winning score will be 15 under.  I like Vijay and UCLA but I'll be watching the men of Troy play Arizona.

[Bill_McBride]

As always, GO BEARS!!!  

[Tom Jefferson]

I have no logic when it comes to Pac 10 football, so I'll take the BEARS over UCLA.  Sticking my neck out even farther, the Ducks over ASU.

At Harding Park, I'll go with sentiment as well and pick George Archer (his first tour win was the Lucky International, played at the old Harding.....believe it was in 1965).  For my other picks I'll take Gene Littler, for his 68 in the first round of the 66 US Open at Olympic (just across Lake Merced from Harding), and Ken Venturi, the undisputed king of Harding.
If, however, they aren't in the field, I'll take the best statistical putter that's in the field this weekend, also in honor of one of the tours all time best putters, Gangly George
Archer...........may you rest in peace!

And just to bring this post into the realm of architecture, and to tie it into the discussion re: Matt Ward and Pacific Dunes, I'll take the 5 hole set of three pars at Pacific Dunes over any other 5 set out there!

Walk in gratitude..........life is short!

Tom

[Mike Benham]

I will take the Broncos over the Gaels, of course.

Tom Watson with Roger Maltby and Bobby Clampett in the top 25.  Nathanial Crosby will finish far down in the pack as an amateur.

[Kevin_Reilly]

Don't forget Don January, the winner of the last pro event at Harding...circa 1982.

Go Bears.

PS, Driver-8 iron on #9 is mind-boggling.

[Joel_Stewart]

Geoffs article is published on www.geoffshackelford.com regarding Harding.

[THuckaby2]

I have no clue about the financial aspects of the renovation, and not living in SF, I truly don't care much.

But I will say this:  Geoff is right (as usual) about the course lacking charm.

When we first discussed it, soon after the course re-opened and when several of us locals played it, as I recall no one was really raving about Harding - no one truly disliked it, as it's hard to dislike the vast improvement in the truly wretched conditions that had existed there - but no one was jumping up and down praising it.

And no one could give really clear reasons why.  I know I couldn't.

So that might be it, put very simply - it lacks any charm.  

Oh, it's a strong test for mortal golfers, no matter what the pros do the next four days.

It's just not all that fun to play.  You hit shot after shot through banal tree corridors to banal greens until you get to 16.  The last three holes are pretty neat.  But they're not neat enough to make up for the previous 15.

Oh heck, it's such a love-fest around here, I don't want to be the nay-sayer - that's Geoff's job.    I just really don't know why Harding leaves me cold... but charmless courses usually do.

TH

[Mike Benham]

I just heard on the radio, an interview from yesterday with John Daly.

He mentioned that he hit driver, sand wedge to 18 ... 18 is out of character with the previous 17 holes primarily with the angle off the tee but also with the carry and undulations in the fairway and up to the green.

He implied that he likes the course better than Olympic because he can hit driver all the time.

And that it was a pretty nice muni, it should be a country club.

[THuckaby2]

Hmmmm... interesting.  Daly's endorsement has me feeling better that Geoff is right.  

As for 18 being out of character with the rest of the course, well he's right on there.  But didn't I mention it's one of the three best holes?  

BTW, I absolutely believe him hitting D-SW on 18 - all that requires is about a 330 yard carry over some very tall trees at the corner - that's right in his wheelhouse.  Man that hole was made for him... talk about a challenge screaming out to be taken.  I betcha anything he tries it at least once the next four days, fails, re-tees and makes double or worse.

For us mortals that is one hell of a hard golf hole.  Fun tee shot also.

[Joel_Stewart]

He implied that he likes the course better than Olympic because he can hit driver all the time.

I worked the US Open in 1998 and met Daly.  Interesting that Olympic didn't allow him to free wheel his driver and forced him to play more conservative.  I also find it interesting (correct me if I am wrong) it may be the only US Open where Daly has made the cut.   If the guy would play with his head, he would be in contention more.

Harding is a course where the players can hit driver on just about every hole including 16.  The fairways where bulldozed to be like bowling alleys with little natural undulations and containment mounds on the sides in certain spots.

[THuckaby2]

Joel:

It's funny - seems to me the reason the pros are seeming to like this course is the exact reason it leaves me cold:  one can indeed just bomb away thoughtless drivers all day.  Oh, you do pay a price if you spray the ball, but it's not like there are any serious club choices to be made, or better angles of attack, or anything.

What has me scratching my head is where some of the pros have said something to the effect of "it's fun to have to think your way around the course."

Rather paradoxical course that Harding is, huh?

 

[David_Tepper]

Tom H. -

I was out there yesterday. Among the golfers I saw practicing, there were a LOT of choices and decisions being made as to what clubs to hit, at least off of the tees on #18, #16 & #7.

Believe me, for every guy hitting 9-iron/wedge into #18, there was another guy hitting 5-iron.

With regards to the criticisms here about Harding (tight, tree-lined, one dimensonal, small greens, charmless, etc.), do you see the OC Lake as being much different in that regard? Just curious.

DT

   

[THuckaby2]

David:

What just has me curious is some saying they can hit drivers all day, some saying it takes thought.  I figured the balance would go toward the latter. These pros are not dumb.  Well, most of them anyway.  

As for my take, well... it actually is somewhat similar to my feelings about OClub Lake, but those were based on how that course was before the recent deforestation.  I haven't played it in at least two years.  I gather it now plays a lot drier, firmer, faster, less suffocatingly tight.  In that light I can understand it's greatness.

But it's also a whole hell of a lot different from Harding, no?

TH

 

[Mike Benham]

Not only is it difficult to compare Harding and Olympic, it is difficult to compare Regular Harding/Olympic vs. Tour Ready Harding/Olympic.

[THuckaby2]

No to mention anything v. USOpen setup Olympic!

 

These are most definitely two courses separated by a common lake.

But bottom line is this:  OClub members aren't staring across wistfully.  That DEFINITELY occurs in the other direction... even this week.  Maybe especially this week.

TH

[Mike Benham]

BTW, I absolutely believe him hitting D-SW on 18 - all that requires is about a 330 yard carry over some very tall trees at the corner - that's right in his wheelhouse.  Man that hole was made for him... talk about a challenge screaming out to be taken.  I betcha anything he tries it at least once the next four days, fails, re-tees and makes double or worse.

He mentioned that it was 310 to clear the trees and with no wind there is no other option than to hit driver left of the bunker.

He then said if the wind blows (assuming into the golfer), then he doesn't know where to aim it.  However, the prevailing wind would be at the golfers back on 18.

Interesting weather this week in the Bay Area.  The Indian Summer components are starting to kick in.  An offshore breeze with warmer temperatures early in the week, cooling down, and then warming up on Sunday.  Not sure how much of this will effect the micro-climate of Harding Park.

Fort Funston Weather-cam

[THuckaby2]

That is interesting.  The concept of going right down into that swale just plain doesn't exist for Long John.  For us mortals that has to be the play a LOT of the time.

But seeing where he stands on the leaderboard right now, who am I to quibble.

I still think he's gonna hit the trees before this thing is over.  This just cements my feeling - it is beyond his mental capacity to go right.

TH

[les_claytor]

The carry over the corner on #18 is actually 276 yards from the back tee, + about 30 feet of elevation w/ ocean breeze at your back.  That tree was always a ?

Really surprised #9 is palying so tough!

I'm extremely prejudiced on Harding, but I guess charm is in the eye of the beholder.  

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