[Ted Kramer]

Justn last Tuesday night I got my final zoning approvals for a destination resort located along the Blue Ridge Parkway near Roanoke Virginia,  The Project has been named FountainHead since I first proposed it almost two years ago.  

I named it that because of the philosophy of the book and the collaboration theory.  Turns out I may have Vinny Giles as a colaborater on this one as he did on Kinloch.  I agree with Tom and Kelly, colaboration in the truest sense is difficult because you always test youe mettle when ideas that go against your basic philosophy have to be debated.  In my case at Kinloch, Vinnie was really helpful from the aspect of how he thought shots should be rewarded or penalized (especiallyaround the greens) and I actually learned some interesting insights into what really strikes fear in the better players mind.  

Anyway, it was fun.  Do I want to do it everytime out? No.  I've always had enough self-confidence to put my ideas out and let them be judged.  You learn early that the world is full of "second-handers" and if you try to placate them they will only criticize your better ideas worse.  

Even if I don't keep FountainHead as a name for this unique project, the philosopht of the design will stay the same.  

Lester

Thanks for posting and best of luck with the project.

-Ted

[JESII]

Jeff Brauer and Jerry Kluger make interesting points early in this thread that struck me. What Rand says through Roark, "collaboration in creative endeavor is folly", means that to her one can only purely illustrate their ideas in an individual (is ego-centric accurate?) manner.

Jeff is accurate in that true collaboration requires a subverted ego. Jerry has seen Sebonak and has high claim for the course. Could either Nicklaus or Doak claim it as their own? In a true collaboration (which this seems to have been) neither would be able to claim responsibility themselves, so there egos must have been checked. How does this happen? When did Tom Doak transform from Howard Roark to (boy do I wish my reading resume were better)a highly successful collaborator when asked?

The ironic thing about golf course architecture, I guess, is that this project may well do more for Tom Doak's career than his Confidential Guide seemed to do.

[JESII]

I guess my point is, how much different is Sebonak from what either would have come up with on their own from a pure golf course point of view? Obviously the marketing value of having the only Doak/Nicklaus course is quite powerful, I understand that perspective, I just wonder about all of these dynamics now and in the future.

[T_MacWood]

Supposedly the main character in FountainHead is loosely based on Frank Lloyd Wright, who often collaborated with young architects, artisans, craftsmen and clients.

I'm not sure how you would successfully design and build (and furnish in Wright's case) something as complex as a building or a home without collaboration...I would think the same would go for a golf course.

[TEPaul]

"I guess my point is, how much different is Sebonak from what either would have come up with on their own from a pure golf course point of view?"

Sully:

For starters, if Doak had not been involved the routing would be very different than it is.

[Mark_Fine]

MANY of the top courses in the country are a result of some form of collaboration - Pine Valley, Augusta National, Pebble Beach, Oakmont, Merion, Crystal Downs, Muirfield Village,...  It works!  In fact I would wager that very few courses are anything but a collaboration of some sort.  Boston Golf Club for example is just one of hundreds of examples.  Gil Hanse's name will go on it but if you asked him who designed the course he would add several more names to the credits list.  

[Kelly Blake Moran]

Getting dressed in the morning can involve a collaboration.  I think you need to define what is meant by collaboration before throwing the word around so loosely.  I assumed something much more substanative and long term.  Of course there is collaboration in every design endeavor, I just thought this thread was asking about a collaboration of more endurance and equality between two people.

[Mark_Fine]

Kelly,
The term is collaboration is nebulous but I'm sure you would agree, NO collaborative design is ever "equal".  "Equal" credit may be given, but that is where the equal part ends.  Ben Crenshaw doesn't put in near the time and effort that Bill Coore does on a project but they both get "equal" credit for their collaborative designs.  That is not to take away anything from Ben, that is just the way it is.  My guess is Doak and Nicklaus are not tracking hours on site on their collaborative effort.  I presume the hope is that what ever each party contributes, the end result of the combined effort will be something "better" than if they did it on their own.  I think it is those efforts where the collaborating parties are not worried too much about "who gets the most credit or does the most work" are the ones that turn out the best.    
Mark

[JESII]

"I guess my point is, how much different is Sebonak from what either would have come up with on their own from a pure golf course point of view?"

Sully:

For starters, if Doak had not been involved the routing would be very different than it is. With what result? more focus on land forms for play or view? I often marvel at the people that claim a routing to be obvious once the course is on the ground, to me a virgin piece of property must be like a blank slate and to suggest any two people would come up with exactly the same routing seems insane, let alone every intelligent person (these statements have not been made about Sebonak, but rather CPC and others).[/color]

I stopped too soon, the remainder of my sentence should be something along the lines of....."and can Sebonak truly be a representation of what either Tom Doak or Jack Nicklaus have previously produced."

Did they work on each facet of the course together, or did they divide up some of the responsibilities and make them blend together as best they could? Jerry Kluger's description of their individual roles (Jack's championship venue vs. Doak's golfing experience) seems to indicate there was at least some separation of responsibilities or desires.

How much comprimise was there in the process?

How will the investment in this project effect future work of Tom Doak and Jack Nicklaus individually?

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