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Tim Liddy

  • Karma: +0/-0
Dinner with Doak
« on: October 02, 2005, 05:04:01 PM »
For all you Doak fans:

I had a chance to have dinner with Tom Doak while he was in St. Andrews playing in the Dunhill (I am there working on the remodel of the Duke’s course). We had a great evening and great conversation with, of course, many Dye stories. We kicked each other under the table as Peter Dawson talked about how the golf ball has not gotten any longer since their ruling on COR (Coefficient of Restitution).  The “buzz” of the evening was how well Tom’s presentation, given the previous night, was received. I wish I would have seen it. We should get him to give us an overview on this site.

PThomas

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Dinner with Doak
« Reply #1 on: October 02, 2005, 08:16:07 PM »
very classy of you Tim

I second your request for Tom to post it
199 played, only Augusta National left to play!

ForkaB

Re:Dinner with Doak
« Reply #2 on: October 03, 2005, 12:48:05 AM »
Tim

I had a late lunch with Tom Thursday PM, and he was sweating bullets as to how he was going to wow that elite group he spoke to later that night.  All I could say was:  "Gunga galunga... gunga, gunga-galunga."

Tom

Glad to see that everything went well.

cary lichtenstein

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Dinner with Doak
« Reply #3 on: October 03, 2005, 06:04:34 AM »
Anybody shower with Tom? ;D
Live Jupiter, Fl, was  4 handicap, played top 100 US, top 75 World. Great memories, no longer play, 4 back surgeries. I don't miss a lot of things about golf, life is simpler with out it. I miss my 60 degree wedge shots, don't miss nasty weather, icing, back spasms. Last course I played was Augusta

ChipRoyce

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Dinner with Doak
« Reply #4 on: October 03, 2005, 08:11:59 AM »
Anybody shower with Tom? ;D

No but, I just saved a ton on my car insurance with Geico

Paul Richards

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Dinner with Doak
« Reply #5 on: October 03, 2005, 11:54:12 PM »
Tim


> We kicked each other under the table as Peter Dawson talked about how the golf ball has not gotten any longer since their ruling on COR


Was Mr. Dawson enjoying single-malt or blended before this presentation???


 :-[ :-[ ::) :P

"Something has to change, otherwise the never-ending arms race that benefits only a few manufacturers will continue to lead to longer courses, narrower fairways, smaller greens, more rough, more expensive rounds, and other mechanisms that will leave golf's future in doubt." -  TFOG

Tom_Doak

  • Karma: +2/-1
Re:Dinner with Doak
« Reply #6 on: October 04, 2005, 07:21:05 PM »
Tim:

It was nice to meet you at long last.  

My presentation apparently went over well with everyone but my client at Sebonack, who thought it should have focused more on his course.  

It's hard to describe it without the slides.  I showed pictures of some of the great courses I'd seen around the world, paying attention to the remote destinations, and then segued into how modern golf architecture seems to be gravitating to the more remote and beautiful destinations as well.  Sort of similar to the article I wrote which accompanied the recent GOLF Magazine rankings.

It was Peter Dawson who suggested eliminating tee pegs ... I wonder why he thinks that is desirable if the equipment is not getting any better?

Bill_McBride

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Dinner with Doak
« Reply #7 on: October 04, 2005, 07:29:39 PM »
The tee pegs is an interesting idea, but mandating driver off every par 4 and par 5 tee might be difficult to enforce!

TEPaul

Re:Dinner with Doak
« Reply #8 on: October 04, 2005, 08:20:09 PM »
Just forget about banning tee pegs---it not only isn't gonna happen it will never even be considered.

But how would you birds like to see the USGA/R&A really stand up and make some serious recommendations regarding the most intelligent types of maintenance practices for golf and golf courses in the future? What I'm talking about is things like recommending a reasonable green speed limit, things like recommending that less artificial irrigation should be used, things like recommending that less chemicals should be used in the future? Things like recommending that a better way to play golf and a more benefical way to highlight certain architecture is to promote firmer and faster conditions "through the green"?

How would you like to see them do that? And furthermore, if they decided to really do that how would you like to see them go about it? I heard something in this vein the other day that really took me by surprise in how they may be just starting to think about something like that but it's too early to mention how.

But the point is, how would you like to see them really start to stand up for how golf maintenance should be preformed in a more constructive manner? They've never done this before but times might be a-changing!  Do any of you really understand what the intent of the Appendices to the Rule Book is all about? Particularly Appendix I?   ;)

(Hint: It's basically a series of local rules and recommendations that can be used at the option of tournament committees and at the option of clubs and such).
« Last Edit: October 04, 2005, 08:30:47 PM by TEPaul »

Mark_Guiniven

Re:Dinner with Doak
« Reply #9 on: October 04, 2005, 09:40:18 PM »
Just forget about banning tee pegs---it not only isn't gonna happen it will never even be considered.

But how would you birds like to see the USGA/R&A really stand up and make some serious recommendations regarding the most intelligent types of maintenance practices for golf and golf courses in the future?

Are you familiar with the R&A's https://www.bestcourseforgolf.org/ site TEPaul? What changes would you make to the literature available on it?

Tom_Doak

  • Karma: +2/-1
Re:Dinner with Doak
« Reply #10 on: October 05, 2005, 07:05:29 AM »
Tom:

I think I can speak for most golf architects when I say we would LOVE to see the USGA recommend reasonable green speeds, reasonable maintenance practices, less water and fertilizer and chemicals, and so forth.

In fact, if you've listened to the Green Section guys over the past few years, you would know that they have been recommending exactly that.  But when they open the floor for questions, my first question is always:

"Then how come you ignore all those recommendations and set a different example in your championships that are played on TV?"

And they just shrug and say that the championship committee is separate from the Green Section and they wish they were on the same page.  

JohnV

Re:Dinner with Doak
« Reply #11 on: October 05, 2005, 10:36:19 AM »
Tom, I think the Championship Committee has been on the side of less water for years.  Look at Shinnecock last year.

Tom_Doak

  • Karma: +2/-1
Re:Dinner with Doak
« Reply #12 on: October 05, 2005, 10:44:12 AM »
John V:

Yes, the championship committee has been using less water for years.  Unfortunately, they combined it with super-fast greens and wind and made Shinnecock look impossible, which probably set back the cause of firm and fast conditions more than anything in the last ten years.  It's pretty hard to sell the membership on what they saw on TV last June.

wsmorrison

Re:Dinner with Doak
« Reply #13 on: October 05, 2005, 11:00:29 AM »
Interestingly, if the Flynn tee on 7 at Shinnecock was put back into use, even the ridiculous course conditions would not have been so over the top and not set the cause back so far.  I agree with Tom Doak that it is going to be difficult to overcome the perception of firm and fast as represented by Shinnecock in 2004.  Tom, before we met with you we played Shinnecock and teed it up from Flynn's old tee.  Now the greens were not over the top but you could hit a draw into the right side of the green and easily hold the green.  You couldn't do that from the Macdonald tee that is in use even in everyday conditions.  That Flynn tee is made for that Flynn green.  I hope we can convince them to revive the tee.  This may be hard since they have a new tee courtesy of the USGA.

Lou_Duran

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Dinner with Doak
« Reply #14 on: October 05, 2005, 11:32:19 AM »
The title reminds me of a phone call placed in my rental car in Chicago by a well-known GCAer to another in CA.   In what may have been the shortest completed call on record, the latter answered "Sorry Geoff, but I am having dinner with Tom Doak right now so I'll have to call you later", clunk!  Seems that Mr. Doak is popular on the dinner circuit.  How does one get on the list?

BTW, could Shinny without near impossible greens (speed and firmness) hold an Open with par being meaningful?  At 10 on the stimp and with the relative shortness of the course, wouldn't the world's best reduce it to a pitch and putt?

TEPaul

Re:Dinner with Doak
« Reply #15 on: October 05, 2005, 12:01:01 PM »
"Are you familiar with the R&A's https://www.bestcourseforgolf.org/ site TEPaul? What changes would you make to the literature available on it?"

MarkG:

No, I was not familar with the R&A hyperlink on this subject. If those on here aren't familar with it what do you think that says?  ;)

And for starters if they really want to get information out there in a general and easially accessible way they could sure do a better job of making it easier to log onto their site.

The new proposal (and believe me this is so new few know about it yet) I just ran across is a few within the USGA are thinking about adding a section to the RULES of GOLF BOOK (yes you heard that correctly) that might be known as Appendix IV that could hopefully begin to address this important issue of maintenance practices that would promote more interesting playabilities (firmer and faster) as well as healthier (drier) agronomy. The subject of more reasonable green speed was also mentioned.

For years I've been mentioning to people within and without the USGA that I would love to see them really start to stand firmly behind these issues and this general subject and now it appears they are thinking about how to do just that better and more effectively.

It's complicated given the complexity of the subject and given varying regions and so forth but they seem to be interested in attempting to do it more comprehensively. However, the very last place I ever excpected this subject to appear was in the RULES of GOLF BOOK. But who cares, just so long as it really does start to comprehensively appear?

So who cares, if that's the way they want to do it and if that's the way they think more people will take notice then so be it.

I can almost predict the way this website might react to this potential initiative. Those on here will start arguing about the vehicle used, that it's not the right vehicle. People on here will probably come up with their own little pet ideas of how to do it better and just end up arguing about the "means" and not the "ends" (the ultimate goal of getting this message out and standing behind it).

GOLFCLUBATLASERS, who the hell cares how they do it just as long as they really do it and do it comprehensively so this message can become so much more visible and better understood by so many more people? There are such intrenched misperceptions out there that just have to be dealt with and overcome, and this is a great opportunity to do that. This may be the best chance ever.

Who cares what train they use to carry this message (The RULES of GOLF BOOK sure surprised me)? Don't argue about the vehicles or even the details of how it will be done, just endorse the concept that it will be done and can be done and endore the fact that they really want to do it.

If the train out of the station carrying this important message and issue happens to be the RULES of GOLF BOOK just get on board and help them get down the tracks and out there on this really important subject.
« Last Edit: October 05, 2005, 12:07:22 PM by TEPaul »

ForkaB

Re:Dinner with Doak
« Reply #16 on: October 05, 2005, 12:16:16 PM »
Tom

I hope you trademark the phrases:  "Maintenance Meld,"  "Fast and Firm," and "Don't Ever Listen to Pat Mucci!" before the USGA adds that section to the Rules.  If so you'll make enough money to be able to hire somebody else to cut the grass on your farm!

TEPaul

Re:Dinner with Doak
« Reply #17 on: October 05, 2005, 12:40:14 PM »
 Re:Dinner with Doak
« Reply #16 on: Today at 12:16:16pm »    

Tom
I hope you trademark the phrases:  "Maintenance Meld,"  "Fast and Firm," and "Don't Ever Listen to Pat Mucci!" before the USGA adds that section to the Rules.  If so you'll make enough money to be able to hire somebody else to cut the grass on your farm!"

Rich:

I just might trademark "Maintenance Meld".

As for "Fast and Firm" I'm afraid that phrase has been trademarked by that upscale strip joint that originated in Orlando Florida some years ago and has now been franchised all over the world.

My phrase "Don't ever listen to Pat Mucci" doesn't need to be trademarked as it already has become the understood motto of GOLFCLUBATLAS.com

And as for making so much money that I can hire someone else to mow the grass on my farm---NEVER. No matter how much money I may ever make or have no one will ever cut the grass on my farm except ME!  
 
 

Bob_Huntley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Dinner with Doak
« Reply #18 on: October 05, 2005, 12:55:44 PM »
Re:Dinner with Doak


And as for making so much money that I can hire someone else to mow the grass on my farm---NEVER. No matter how much money I may ever make or have no one will ever cut the grass on my farm except ME!  


Tom,

Cutting the grass followed by a gin and tonic, is the best
therapy in the world.

Bob

ForkaB

Re:Dinner with Doak
« Reply #19 on: October 05, 2005, 01:28:49 PM »
Bob

Good point.

Tom

OK, you can cut your own grass if you want to, and the bathtub gin chez Paul gets a 7 on the Doak Scale, but could you please not serve that bathtub tonic again next time I visit.  Far too much quinine and far too little fizz......

Thanks in advance.

PThomas

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Dinner with Doak
« Reply #20 on: October 06, 2005, 02:55:51 PM »
the fresh smell of newcly cut grass , then a gin and tonic?

here, here, Bob!!
199 played, only Augusta National left to play!