The second-best course in East Lothian

[Darren_Kilfara]

Having just returned from my first-ever round at Luffness New, which I enjoyed tremendously, I'm moved to ask the following question: which of the below courses is the second-best course in East Lothian (Scotland), and why?

TOP CONTENDERS
--Gullane No. 1
--North Berwick (West)
--Luffness New

OTHER PRETENDERS
--Dunbar
--Longniddry
--Archerfield

CONTROVERSIAL ALTERNATIVES
--Muirfield
--something else not on the above lists
--(it hasn't been built yet)

Cheers,
Darren

[Larry_Keltto]

OT: tell me about Luffness New. I've never played it, but it's a course that's always intrigued me. You don't hear about Luffness much, and I've heard it's difficult to get on.

[Tiger_Bernhardt]

Darren, I think the discussion is between N Berwick and Gullane 1and goes not further than those two. Dunbar is next with airspace before Luffness New or anything else. I personally like N Berwick for 2nd but for a Championship I could see Gullane 1 next after Muirfield.

[Tony_Muldoon]

Didn't someone else ask "what about the East Lothian question?"


Edited later it suddenly occurred to me the Question was in reference to West Lothian

http://www.parliament.uk/commons/lib/research/notes/snpc-02586.pdf

[Darren_Kilfara]

Luffness was very enjoyable, Larry. I could compare it to a cross between Gullane No. 1 and No. 3, if you've played either/both of them. Very tight driving course. A bit on the short side - not a bad thing at all for me, but others might disagree. Some really neat short par 4s, several with fallaway greens beyond cross-bunkers 30 or so yards short of the green, in such a way that you really have to flirt with the bunkers on your approach when the wind is behind you. (I drove the 330-yard 15th today with a gale at my back by splitting two such cross-bunkers about a yard apart, but that's not exactly how you'd draw it up in the playbook!) Course in very good shape - doesn't get a lot of play, so you'd expect that. A couple of *really* good and even borderline wild greens - my favorites probably being those at the 3rd and 4th, the latter being a really good dogleg-left par 5 - with some other flat/subtle ones. I don't agree with Tiger that you can dismiss it out of hand relative to Gullane No.  1 and North Berwick...its only real weaknesses are its relative lack of length and perhaps an over-reliance upon narrowness as a defense.

Sean, I think you're on drugs. I really like North Berwick, but I was out at Gullane No. 1 a few weeks ago, and on my way back to Dunbar one of my learned colleagues commented that Gullane No. 1 was the second-best course in East Lothian without any question (a comment which is sort of behind my starting this thread). I pointed out that a lot of people on this website would nominate North Berwick for that honor, and he nearly spat up all over the dashboard of his car. He said, "North Berwick...the last six holes, each one of them is worse than the one before it!" And you know, when you stop and think about it, he has a point - the final six are all fantastically fun holes, but are they good ones? A very good argument can be made that they're not, and that anyone who rates North Berwick that highly is a little bit too in love with quirk...

By the way, I drove down to Archerfield on my way home today - the second 18 appears to be mostly grown in. What I saw looked about a 4-to-5 on the Doak Scale; the Scottish PGA matchplay is being held at the first course this upcoming week, so if I have a few hours spare I might go out and walk around a bit. I get all confused - is Doak's forthcoming course in this area going to be part of the Archerfield development?

Cheers,
Darren

[Bill_McBride]

It appears no one has asked you the key question:  what is, in your opinion, #1 in East Lothian?

[Tiger_Bernhardt]

Bill, A place called Muirfield is number 1. Darren I feel the back nine at Luffness really seems like it is part of Gullane 3 or something. The holes on the clubhouse side of the road, while short, are good and the whole course had great greens. Yet, I cannot even think of putting it in the same class with the top 3 or 4. I love it as a 2nd course of the day after climbing the Gullane Hill in the morning. You can put a pint in your trolly without the concern of spilling a drop, while playing a few holes as the sun fades in the summer sky.

[mike_beene]

Gullane 1 gets my vote.N Berwick has several of my favorite holes:1,2,3,13,16.
i really don't care for redan and its hill,but will include 15 for historical purposes.After 4 playings,I have trouble remembering 6 or 7 holes.I did not like Gullane at first,but it is now one of my favorites.Take out the Murfield experience and I might put Gullane first.I would still say NB is third and a must play.Is it just me,or does Gullane have the best turf in the world?Great chipping course.

[mike_beene]

Don't forget to eat at the hotel in Aberlady.

[Bill_McBride]

Mike, go back and look at Darren's initial post.  He asked, what's #2 and then listed North Berwick, Gullane #1 and Muirfield as possible #2's. Muirfield in fact as a "controversial alternate." Who's #1?  Or should I ask, "Who's on first?"

[Andrew Summerell]

Of those mentioned, I've only played Gullane #1 & North Berwick (West). I played Gullane in the morning with little breeze. It's a nice course, but my vote would be for North Berwick.

Of the 12 courses I played on my last trip, North Berwick would have to be close to the most fun I had on the whole trip.

[Bill_McBride]

Andrew, I agree 100%!  North Berwick is as much fun as any course anywhere.  When you played, was the first half into the wind and the back nine down wind?  That is the prevailing wind, and makes the front nine play very long, and the back nine somewhat difficult on the shortish holes because of the downwind shots to those firm greens.  

[mike_beene]

My assumption was Murfield was first.By Gullane 1 I meant Gullane #1.

[ForkaB]

I haven't played Luffness, but I assume from my discussions with many highly experienced golfers who have that it is roughly in the same class as Gullane #1 and North Berwick--i.e. contending for a 2nd Michelin star on the days when the chef is on form, but never really aspiring to greatness.

Muirfield IS great. In fact it helps define "great" in the links vernacular.

And, yes, North Berwick is great fun, but overrated as a golf course, much like Cruden Bay, and a few others.......

Vis a vis the "East Lothian Question," Tony, I think that GCA posters who have called their cat "Redan" or "Perfection", or even "The Pit" should not be allowed to vote on this issue.

[Dan King]

Rich Goodale writes:
And, yes, North Berwick is great fun, but overrated as a golf course, much like Cruden Bay, and a few others.......

Yeah. No way golfers should be having fun on golf courses. Maybe that should be a new criteria for some of these ranking systems. Subtract points depending on how much fun you had playing the course.

In East Lothian there is North Berwick and then courses such as Gullane No. 1, East Luftness and Muirfield a step below.

Dan King

Blue lights flashing in my rear-view mirror
The sheriff says, "Boy I should have known it was you
You've got fourteen people in the back of this truck
I've warned you twice and now I'm writing you up."
I said, "Officer, what have I done?"
He smiled and said, "Boy, you're having too much fun."
Too much fun? What's that mean?
It's like too much money, there's no such thing
It's like a girl too pretty, with too much class
Being too lucky, a car too fast
No matter what they say I've done
I ain't never had too much fun
 --Daryle Singletary

[Darren_Kilfara]

Bill, I'm of the opinion that Muirfield has to be #1 in East Lothian - it's no contest - but I list it as a contender for the #2 slot for the sake of completeness.

Now, then...Tiger mentioned Dunbar. Do others think it should be on the Contenders list instead of the Pretenders list? My initial opinion was that it's close but not quite good enough to be mentioned in the same breath as North Berwick, Gullane No. 1 and (possibly) Luffness. (Also: Tiger, your "rebuttal" as to why Luffness shouldn't be a contender included several reasons that you really liked the course and none for why it shouldn't be considered!)

Cheers,
Darren

[Brian Phillips]

And, yes, North Berwick is great fun, but overrated as a golf course, much like Cruden Bay, and a few others.......

 

[ForkaB]

Dan, Brian, et. al.

Painswick is more fun that North Berwick and Cruden Bay put together, but nobody would ever call it a "great" golf course.  Comprende, compadres?

[Brian Phillips]

Rich,

I agree with you that North Berwick is not a 'great' course.  It is a great course to play but not 'great' in a championship testing way.

It is however, UNIQUE in that anyone who enjoys golf WILL have a good FUN time playing the course.  It is a superb matchplay course because of it's short length and quirky holes.

It IS one of the courses that any architect should visit not because of the Redan but because it demonstrates how a golf course can still be designed to be fun for every class of golfer.  

As long as you do not take the golf seriously when playing there and just enjoy your fourball match,  there are not many other courses in Scotland that I would like to play a 'bounce' game.

It is what I would call a Resort Links golf course....

It is miles better and more fun than Cruden Bay (which is overated...)

Brian


 

[ForkaB]

Well said, Brian.

PS--fun on GCA is when you can say something that makes Dan King's beard turn purple......

PPS--It's fun to push Sean's Painswick button from time to time too!

[Keith Durrant]

I feel obliged to speak up for Dunbar !!

The views from the 3rd and 4th tees of this course make the heart sing. There can be few other courses with as many holes, so close to the sea.

And there's a whole series of strong and memorable holes: 3,4,6,7,9,10,11,12,13,14,15

[Darren_Kilfara]

Thanks, Keith. I recently moved to Dunbar and am on the waiting list to join the club - I've only played the course three times, so I'm hardly an expert, and I'm happy to hear of another positive testimony!

Re: North Berwick as a "fun" course, I think it should be noted that it still serves as an Open qualifying course when the main event is played at Muirfield, and competitive strokeplay golf is emphasised at other points during the year as well. Should that factor into the equation when evaluating its merits as a course? Because greens/approaches like the ones at holes 14, 16 and even the Redan (when the pin is at the front of the green) really aren't conducive to strokeplay fairness. The 16th is one of the all-time goofy greens in the world - I love it, but I love it rather less when I'm playing in a strokeplay competition. And at an Open competition at North Berwick this summer, we played the 14th in a strong tailing wind with the pin at the front-right of the green, and I promise you that luck was the only real difference between stopping your approach somewhere on the left side of the green (50 feet from the hole) or having it run into the long grass and rocks just beyond - and as the approach is blind, it is hugely difficult to find a ball or tell if it has passed beyond the hazard stakes over the green. Shots like these are why I think Rich's assessment - that a course can be fun but not great (or for that matter great but not fun, cf. Carnoustie) - is spot on...

Cheers,
Darren

[Tiger_Bernhardt]

Darren, I am mixed on Dunbar. I really like it but feel it is a hair below Gullane 1 and N Berwick. I really like Luffness but feel the holes over the road are not of the same strength of Gullane 1. Thats why I said Gullane 3 but it could be Gullane 2 or 3. I need to play it again. Maybe I was on the day i played there but it seemed tame compared to Muirfield and Gullane 1. It just seemed like a fun good course but not one with memorable indiviual holes.

[Tom Ferrell]

I thoroughly enjoyed Dunbar.  Yes, the adjacent factory is unfortunate, but the movement of the property is excellent, and the cliffside holes are spectacular.  I knew *nothing* about it going in and was very pleasantly surprised.

Funny Dunbar story:  My buddy and I were late, of course, arriving at the tee.  The men's club watched with daggers as we threw ourselves together and mercifully sent our drives down the first fairway.  Hustling off the tee, we overheard the first three-ball of the men's club identifying the balls they would be playing.  Imagine the thick Scottish accents...

1st guy:  "I'm playing a Titleist 4."
2nd guy: "I've got a Titleist 2."
3rd guy:  "I've got me a Pinnacle.  I'm not fuckin' around today, boys."

Lunch in the Dunbar clubhouse was also a pleasure.

TOM

[Keith Durrant]

Dunbar: the cement works is only in view on 3 holes out of 18 at the far end of the course. It certainly didnt stop my enjoyment of the course. And they blew a stick of dynamite while we were out there  

What about hole 13, with the blind second shot over spectacles bunkers, to a drunken punchbowl green? How can you not love that?!