Style

[Mark_Rowlinson]

Playing Delamere Forest (Fowler) yesterday, I came to the conclusion that all the Fowler courses I know (Walton Heath, Berkshire, Saunton East, Beau Desert, Delamere Forest, Bull Bay, Yelverton, West Surrey and perhaps others that have slipped my mind) are very different in style.  I cannot discern a feature common to them all which might be said to be a characteristic trade mark or style.  They are all good, thinking-men's courses.  They utilise the natural features of their terrain excellently.  Yet they are all different.  Have I missed something?  Is this unusual among great architects?

[Tony_Muldoon]

Mark I can't imagine anyone has played more of this courses than you.  According to Corninsh & Whitten the only courses ou've left out in GB are
North Foreland
Royal Automobile C.                (is this the RAC?)
West kent
Woodcote Park
Blackwell
Bradford
Cowdray Park
Delemere Forest
Knowle Park
Manor Ho hotel
Cruden bay
and two private courses one for Lord Mountbatten and the other for Mortimer Singer.
Some of the above are colaboratins with Simpson and others.

The only one's I've played are at the Berkshire and even thought they are on similar ground they do seem like two different courses, full of surprises with no trademark holes common to both. The Rhythm of the Red with it's famous equal no's of Par 3,4 & 5 make it seem refreshingly like nowhere else I've played.

[Sean_A]

Tony

I hadn't realized Fowler did Blackwell.  That is interesting because it really helps make Mark's point.  All four of the Fowlers I have played in the UK;  Beau Desert, Delamere, Cruden Bay  and Blackwell, are very different from each other.  Blackwell is very much a parkland course, and the other two are more heathlike.  Beau Desert is quite tight and Delamere at least gives the impression of wide open space.  The fairways are generous, but there are some spots fairly close to the line of play in which a ball can be lost.  Both myself and Philip lost balls that were no more 5 yards off the green.  Mind you, Philip's lament was terribly unlucky.

One thing is for sure, Fowler was not afraid of building some funky holes.  Cruden Bay has a long list of funk.  Delamere has some funk as well.  There is a stretch on the back nine, #s 13-15 which are all short two shotters (in truth drivaeable under the right circumstances for the the flat bellies), but all three are very different from each other.  I was very impressed by this variety.  

Another interesting tid bit is that I think the best stretch of holes are #s 14-16.  Three holes totaling about 800 yards with a total par of 11.  Magnificent stuff.  

Ciao

Sean  

[T_MacWood]

I don't think it is that unusual for an architect's style to evolve and change. Especially if his career spans a long period, and that period includes the early, somewhat primitive beginings of golf architecture along with the acknowledged high point.  From Walton Heath (1903/1904) to Berkshire (1928).

Fowler was assisted by Simpson at Berkshire, his distinctive hand is evident. I'm not sure how much these courses have changed over the years, that could be a factor....from what I have seen the original West Surrey, Beau Desert and Delamere Forest were of a similar style.

Cruden Bay was an existing golf course redesigned by Simpson, he deserves credit there.

Knole Park and Manor House are Abercromby.

Also, it has been my observation that an architect's inland style is often different than their links style. Colt is a prime example, his bunkering style is toned down by the sea, Simpson's as well, and although he did not do too many links courses, I think that it is the case with MacKenzie too. An exception to this rule appears to be Hawtree (and Taylor), from what I have seen of early photos of Birkdale, their links bunkering was equally flamboyant inland and on the links.

How much of Fowler is left at Saunton?

[Sean_A]

Tommy Mac

Not to get up your nose, but explain to me the similarities between  Beau Desert and Delamere Forest.  

My take is that the bunkering is similar in style, not placement.  Beau Desert has cross bunkering on #s 2, 17, & 18.  I don't recall any on DF.  DF has several holes with tricky short bunkers which disguise the distance of approach shots, holes 2, 4, 7, 10, 13 and 16 are examples.  I don't recall any on BD.

BD is quite tight with trees in play on most holes.  DF has very few trees in play and gives the impression of playing much more open than BD.  Though it is deceiving tight with penal rough in places.  The openess allows wind to play a much larger role at DF.  

The greens at BD have much more movement than DF.  Though I reckon the greens at DF could have been flattened.  They don't seem to fit the very hilly terrain.

One similarity between the two courses is hilly ground.  Both courses go up and down.  There is probably 75-100 feet of elevation change throughout the course.  

In short, I think Mark, The Cheshire Champion, is correct in pointing out that there are marked differences between many of Fowler's courses.

I don't know how much of Fowler is left at Saunton, this is why I didn't mention Saunton earlier.  Do you have any clues to this question?

Ciao

Sean

[T_MacWood]

Sean
What does the encroachment of trees ninety years later have to do with an architect's style?

Fred Hawtree was poking around DF...I reckon he may have done something with your crossbunkers.

Earlier on Fowler relied upon plasticine models and because of this practice his original greens were described as having a similar distinctive modeled appearance.

Au revoir

Tom

PS: From what I understand the courses at Saunton were completely rebuilt after the war.

[Sean_A]

Tom

It would be interesting to see what the tree situation at BD was in past days.  I played with a BD member from this era this past summer.  He couldn't recall the trees being much different than today.  He said the biggest difference was the fairways have been narrowed a touch by rough and that the course was even faster in his hey day.  I can't believe that BD gets any faster.  If anything, I think it is too fast these days given the penal nature of the rough and trees.  In any case, there is no way that BD was ever as open as DF.  The difference is very marked.  It could be that DF had many more trees than today as it just south of a small forest.  

A curious aspect of the DF greens is that they tended to be round or oval shaped, a bit uniformed if you like.  It would be quite odd for a later architect to flatten and uniformly shape the greens.  I don't know though.  This doesn't strike me as something Hawtree was known for doing.  Were there any other folks playing around with DF?

I am not sure the club can do much about altering the course much.  They do own the land, but because the course is part of Cannock Chase, there are serious restrictions concerning the landscape.

I knew that Pennick or Cotton or perhaps both came in after WWII to make some changes on what would be called The East course and The West course was built sometime in the 60s or 70s.  Fowler wasn't the original architect, but I think he did a complete rebuild of a Dunn effort in the 20s.  Chances are there is still quite a bit of Fowler left, but who knows?

Ciao

Sean

[T_MacWood]

Fowler designed two new courses at Saunton. The old course in 1919 and the new course in 1935. The new course did not survive the war, the old course was rebuilt/remodeled by CK Cotton after the war. The place was used for military training during the war...to simulate invasions and such. A second 18 was built in the 70's. Dunn designed the first  course there in 1897....Fowler's first 18 replaced it.

Delamere Forest was of an open nature when it opened in 1911. Fowler was not in the habit of building round greens...I suspect the round greens today are a result of maintenance practices.