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Forrest Richardson

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:No More Pegs!
« Reply #25 on: October 02, 2005, 12:46:00 PM »
....Our own historian Geoff Cornish, and some older members of the audience will probably recall reading about the acrimonious feud between featherie ball maker Allan Robertson and Old Tom Morris. It was so contentious that Old Tom moved his club-making and teaching business across the entire width of Scotland from St Andrews to Prestwick. Morris favored the new guttie ball, a product that would have put Robertson out of business had he not been decent enough to die first. That ball changed golf, and most say for the better, and perhaps that is hard to dispute because the easier, cheaper guttie attracted many more players to the game.
But fifty years later, the next-generation ball - that bouncing, bounding Haskell - was not viewed by top professional players as an improvement. The great Harry Vardon, after his first test, stated the new ball would make the game too simple and particularly decried the loss of one skill. "Playing the guttie into a tough headwind," Vardon wrote, "has always been the toughest shot in the game. Learning to strike down hard on the ball to ensure it does not bellow up and finish behind you was an art. Sadly this new ball has taken all the risk out of that shot." Thus the sand patty tee mound became more in vogue to help get the new ball get airborne. [Subsequently Vardon, the most talented player of his era accepted a lucrative tour of the United States to promote this new ball.]
Innovations, good and bad, were arriving thick and fast at the end of the nineteenth century. Among them the original greens mower provided the first consistently maintained putting surfaces. Dr. George Franklin Grant, graduate of the Harvard School of Dentistry, class of 1870, spent most of his nineteen-nineties leisure time on the recently imported fad of golf. Perhaps he was a persnickety fellow accustomed to permanently clean hands. Whatever the reason, he tired of making mud-pie tees from damp sand, he returned to his study and invented golf's first artificial aid.
Patent 638,920 was granted in 1899, a ball-perch around two inches tall, a folding rubber top on an upright stem. An immediate success? Not at all. Grant died in 1910, his tee-up idea shelved a decade earlier from lack of general interest.
The tee-it-up business and dentistry would appear to have no obvious connection, but the next and considerably more successful attempt to put the golf ball on an artificial pedestal was the brainchild of yet another American dentist, Dr. William Lowell from Maplewood, New Jersey.
Lowell first experimented with gutta percha, the material used to produce the rubber "guttie" ball but found the material too brittle. Local birch-wood proved more durable and he painted his trial batch green. Wrong! Red turned out to be the color that caught on and in no time at all "Reddy Tees" became a vogue. Walter Hagen helped the cause when he accepted a healthy fee from the inventor to publicize the product. Unlike Grant, or perhaps because Grant's patent was still viable, Lowell failed to register his product. Soon the burgeoning golf-market was flooded with imitations.

he artificial peg itself would change very little in the next eighty years, outlasting hickory shafts, the stymie, leather wraparound grips, the British ban on center-shafted putters, persimmon drivers, golf hats and shirts without logos, and yellow, bell-bottom pants. So please, if you will, concentrate on that word, artificial. Because that is what a tee is, an artifice, a ploy to simplify the game, a scam invented by a high-handicap player to help get the ball in the air. Golf, my friends, should properly be played from the ground to the ground into the ground.
Here's a bit of history. The "T" is an ancient Egyptian surveyors' mark, set in the ground, meaning 'begin here,' in the direction of the stem of the "T". But begin what? — A pyramid? — Or begin playing the Royal and Really Ancient game?
To my knowledge, only two entrepreneurial types made personal fortunes from tee-related matters. Naturally one was a frugal Scot, Hamish MacFadgen, who invented the woolie-bobble. The bobble, a sort of sporran tassel but made from knitting wool of various colors, was attached by a piece of tough thread, about a foot in length, to the tee-stem.
"Aye, I know it costs sixpence when the tee only costs thruupence. But you'll only need ane o'each in a lifetime of golf," he'd tell his parsimonious clients.
MacFadgen woolie-bobbles sold in millions until Grandma Gourlie discovered, much by accident, that bobbles were easily and cheaply made at home simply by means of twisting and knotting excess knitting yarn and so ended MacFadgen's fortune.
The sprawling British Empire introduced the game of golf to India long before it reached New York and Jamil "Pindle" Singh — so nicknamed for the paucity of his drives — also made a small fortune from the game. Aware that the ownership of a tiger's tooth was considered one of the most significant of all good-luck charms in his native land, he inventively added superstition to his sales pitch. Boring a small hole in each large tiger-tooth, he threaded a small wire through the hole and attached the other end to a wooden tee; a ploy by which he persuaded gullible clients that they could always find their tee and have good fortune at the same time. Such aids are now but a footnote in the litany of golfing memorabilia, while the artificial tee lives dangerously on. It is time to kill it before it kills the classic courses we know and love.
Of course there will be a minority who say we are changing the nature of the game by limiting freedom of choice. Yet, in modern times, we have most certainly done this before. Name me one golf course where a player, whether professional or amateur, is allowed to use any club other than a putter on the greens? Yet once upon a time the tee-off area was from just alongside the previous hole, and there was small difference to be noted.
I see a smirk over there. You, Sir - are you one of the Mulligan-types or perhaps an all season "winter rules" nudger? Of course there will be surreptitious rascals who will sneak wooden tees onto the course. But to quote a better source than anyone in this room, those fellows are simply not playing the same game as the rest of us. So be it. For the vast majority the game is simple. The USGA and the R&A set the Rules - we honor them.
We have choices now being forced upon us as rapidly as the Industrial Revolution forced unremitting change upon the 19th century. For us to simply sit back and do nothing will ultimately result in a routine of nine thousand yard golf courses, and what will be the point of that? To prove professional golfers play a different game from the rest of us? To defend Par as some sort of gesture to tradition? To humble those of us who from time to time would like to play the back tees?
Finally, we have Big Bertha and the little ball. Those who swing ever larger-headed drivers will set the ball upon even higher pegs. Today's young college limberbacks are already swinging from their heels every time because the physical properties of the medal driver have overcome Hogan's fear of the hook with his persimmon woods. But drop the ball on the ground and the large trampolined sweet spot will physically be above the ball as it lies and therefore useless. Get to the root cause and the new equipment will revert automatically to its former size.
And for all you architects who like to crack eggs to make fresh omelets, you will have plenty of design work to do. For example, you could even design, as Tom Fazio did, a "teeless" golf course like the short 10-hole replica course at Pine Valley. Let your imagination be your guide to help save the game.
Ladies and gentlemen, one simple decision today can change golf forever, for the good of all.
Ban the artificial tee from the game and do it now!

Robert Trent Jones, Jr.
as presented to the American Society of
Golf Course Architects annual meeting
Santa Barbara, California
April 28, 2002

— Forrest Richardson, Golf Course Architect/ASGCA
    www.golfgroupltd.com
    www.golframes.com

Jim_Kennedy

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:No More Pegs!
« Reply #26 on: October 02, 2005, 04:28:06 PM »
Forrest,
I think I posted some info on the popularity of wooden tees that showed more widespread use earlier than the '50s, but I don't think that's as relevant to the issue as 'teeing' itself.

The earliest mention of teeing is in the first rules and "making a tee" appears as early as 1773. The present day length of a teeing devices 4".

I don't see the utility of removing tee devices from the game. Would the labor and material cost for the extra maintenance be happily absorbed by your average, run-of-the-mill golf course? Does anyone believe that the GCSAA will go quietly into the night if such an idea were to be proposed? I'd think 'no' would be the answer to either of these questions.

I wasn't invited  ;D for that speech but it's always sounded a little tongue-in-cheek-ish to me.  
« Last Edit: October 02, 2005, 04:30:00 PM by Jim_Kennedy »
"I never beat a well man in my life" - Harry Vardon

Forrest Richardson

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:No More Pegs!
« Reply #27 on: October 02, 2005, 04:44:01 PM »
I feel it would be a great idea to mandate NO TEES for tour events.

"Play like men, you babies!"

The rest of us can go on using wooden tees. Or, if we prefer, we can occasionally chuck the devices aside and play against our opponent without such a crutch.

I feel that tee abolishment would be a far easier ordeal to get passed than adopting a tour ball. Simply put, casual games would often use tees, tournament events would not.

The results would be fabulous.
« Last Edit: October 02, 2005, 04:44:40 PM by Forrest Richardson »
— Forrest Richardson, Golf Course Architect/ASGCA
    www.golfgroupltd.com
    www.golframes.com

A_Clay_Man

Re:No More Pegs!
« Reply #28 on: October 02, 2005, 05:46:54 PM »
Adam — They may be able, occasionally, to strike a shot 350-yards from the deck, but only if "the deck" is smooth and pristine. Do you really think "the deck" will be in good shape after all those daily shots? Regardless, the shots will be further off line. So the wise player will carefully consider club selection, perhaps going with 10-15% less distance — by choice.


Forest- Being able to place ones ball next to, or in-front of, an existing divot will act just like having a small peg.

I am surprised that you emphatically think it reduces distance.

On par threes, I'm of the understanding that it is general knowledge that playing off the deck, allows for a little extra distance, with one's irons. Why is the driver any different? Won't a lower trajectory allow for greater roll and therefore greater distance?


I have a suggestion for anybody who is seriously considering this. Call Casey Boynes at Pebble Beach. He is a star stud of a ball striker, who has won the cal am, and other major am titles. He should be able to inform you about this misnomer, first hand.

Forrest Richardson

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:No More Pegs!
« Reply #29 on: October 02, 2005, 05:51:28 PM »
Addam: Forrest — two Rs.

There is simply no possibility that the friction of earth beneath a golf ball being struck by a club induces MORE distance. It may be a fluke that a particular individual is able to master as much distance without a tee, but it cannot be the norm.

For this rare individual it may have to do with trajectory. The practice will certainly lead to more wayward shots as it involves a variable. Variables increase the chance for error.
« Last Edit: October 02, 2005, 05:52:01 PM by Forrest Richardson »
— Forrest Richardson, Golf Course Architect/ASGCA
    www.golfgroupltd.com
    www.golframes.com

Mike Nuzzo

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:No More Pegs!
« Reply #30 on: October 02, 2005, 07:20:53 PM »
Wouldn't the club manufacturers make a specialized wood head that has a super low cg with a lower maximized cor spot.
Of course they would also play with a higher tragectory club, that would also increase ball rotation thus creating more drag and less carry....
Equipment manufacturers would still probably sue.
I don't see how the supreme court wouldn't rule in the USGA's favor ....Shivas or one of you other legal types - any thoughts?

p.s.  Forrest - if the friction lowers the rpms, the ball could fly farther.
Cheers
« Last Edit: October 02, 2005, 07:22:41 PM by Mike_Nuzzo »
Thinking of Bob, Rihc, Bill, George, Neil, Dr. Childs, & Tiger.

Mike Hendren

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:No More Pegs!
« Reply #31 on: October 02, 2005, 07:32:00 PM »
Why don't all you chaps in the Chicken Little Club just take the lead and eschew the tee your ownselves.  Perhaps even a contest among you not unlike the Seinfeld's Master Of Your Domain Episode - last guy not using the tee wins.  

The mere act of holding a golf ball under thumb against the tee wedged between fingers is one of the great joys in the game - then you have to hit the ball and ruin it all.

Mike
Two Corinthians walk into a bar ....

Forrest Richardson

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:No More Pegs!
« Reply #32 on: October 02, 2005, 07:36:13 PM »
Mike — As you know, I am not an engineer. But...it will be difficult to convince me that elimination of the ability to tee a ball upon a thin wooden stand of rather constant quality, instead mandating that it be placed upon the soil, would have anything but negative effects upon accuracy or distance.

It would be fun to see the club manufacturers work on this scenario. Knock yourselves out! Send the ball higher...have at it.

The element of inconsistency in turf height, ground condition, sand particles, drag, swing inconsistency, etc., would each affect the flight of the ball. It would create much more thought in club selection and tee shots.
— Forrest Richardson, Golf Course Architect/ASGCA
    www.golfgroupltd.com
    www.golframes.com

Forrest Richardson

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:No More Pegs!
« Reply #33 on: October 02, 2005, 07:40:33 PM »
Just the combination of "Master Of Your Domain" and "one of the great joys" within Bogey's post makes me suspicious.

Isn't using a wooden tee akin to taking a cart? While it is not 100% taboo, it does go against the nature of the game.

As for me not using a wooden tee, I have played this game. It is fun — as is Arbitrary Values (Geo. Thomas).
« Last Edit: October 02, 2005, 07:41:03 PM by Forrest Richardson »
— Forrest Richardson, Golf Course Architect/ASGCA
    www.golfgroupltd.com
    www.golframes.com

A_Clay_Man

Re:No More Pegs!
« Reply #34 on: October 02, 2005, 09:48:48 PM »
Addam: Forrest — two Rs.

There is simply no possibility that the friction of earth beneath a golf ball being struck by a club induces MORE distance. It may be a fluke that a particular individual is able to master as much distance without a tee, but it cannot be the norm.

For this rare individual it may have to do with trajectory. The practice will certainly lead to more wayward shots as it involves a variable. Variables increase the chance for error.

Forrest, sorry fopr the typo!

There is no way you will ever convince me that teeing the ball up is a cause for more accuracy. As I said before, I use the driver off the deck more than most, and the reason, and situation I use it, is...for more predictable accuracy.

If Mike nUzzo, former  NASA project manager, can't convince you of the physics, I wonder if anybody could convince you to change your mind on any subject? What say you?


Forrest Richardson

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:No More Pegs!
« Reply #35 on: October 02, 2005, 09:56:58 PM »
Adam — I recall (fondly) you strike a 7-iron to an Apache Stronghold par-3 green. I recall a modestly well placed shot. I do not recall you hitting a Big Bertha from a worn out tee surface on that particular day. In fact, I recall wooden tees being used as if they were penny candy.

If hitting from the deck were to produce farther, more accurate shots, then surely we would have seen this advent by now. We have not. Simply stated, it is a difficult, unpredictible event involving foreign particles, dirt, turf conditions, mud, etc.

I am open minded. Mike is welcome to convince me otherwise.
« Last Edit: October 02, 2005, 09:57:23 PM by Forrest Richardson »
— Forrest Richardson, Golf Course Architect/ASGCA
    www.golfgroupltd.com
    www.golframes.com

A_Clay_Man

Re:No More Pegs!
« Reply #36 on: October 02, 2005, 10:02:38 PM »
See how counter-intuitive this game is??

P,s When I said more than most, I meant people, not circumstance.
« Last Edit: October 02, 2005, 10:03:41 PM by Adam Clayman »

RJ_Daley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:No More Pegs!
« Reply #37 on: October 03, 2005, 11:59:05 AM »
My memory may be faulty, but it seems to me that Adam was just dropping his ball on the tees at Blackwolf Run and hitting a persimmon headed 3w or driver off the deck.  Am I remembering that correctly, Adam?

I have left my driver behind a few times, and played 3metal off the deck.  I really don't think it effected my score by more than a stroke or two.  At our home course, I can't reach 3 of the par 5s in two anyway.  Driver-5w-9i/wedge or 3w-3w/5w-8i/9i.  Whats the difference?  ::) ;D  Or, one more club into the par 4s, same thing.  Hit the fairway with the 3i off the deck on the drive, and you are basically better off than in the woods, rough, or drink. :P
No actual golf rounds were ruined or delayed, nor golf rules broken, in the taking of any photographs that may be displayed by the above forum user.

A_Clay_Man

Re:No More Pegs!
« Reply #38 on: October 03, 2005, 04:23:43 PM »
Dick- I go through phases. But honestly, I go to the off the deck shot, when I'm sick of spraying it off the tee.
Or, into a gale. WHy into a gale you might ask? For added distance, of course.
« Last Edit: October 03, 2005, 04:25:51 PM by Adam Clayman »

RJ_Daley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:No More Pegs!
« Reply #39 on: October 03, 2005, 05:53:04 PM »
Well since I posted the above today, and it is so damn nice here in WI today, I went to play a round.  Although it was quite windy.  

I left the driver in the truck, and committed to "no pegs" off any tee box today.  I hit 3 wood off the deck by tufting up some turf by kicking it up with heel.  I also played all par 3 tees off the deck, no pegs.  It didn't make a darn bit of difference. I pretty much played to my normal abilities.  But, I felt naked for the first few holes without the driver and ball on the tee.  When I saw I was pretty much hitting the 3W off the deck to my ussual spots where I land with driver and ball on tee, I lost the mental crutch thing.  I even made two birdies on par 4s.  I made my ussual share of bogeys, even when hitting the greens in reg... It's the putting stupid... ::) ;D
No actual golf rounds were ruined or delayed, nor golf rules broken, in the taking of any photographs that may be displayed by the above forum user.

A_Clay_Man

Re:No More Pegs!
« Reply #40 on: October 03, 2005, 06:02:59 PM »
Wtg Dick!

As a reward for your practical application of a discussiopn group topic, I am pleased to provide you with this ...



Sorry Tom, I'm out of control

THuckaby2

Re:No More Pegs!
« Reply #41 on: October 03, 2005, 06:07:34 PM »
 ;D ;D ;D

Lots of Toms here but given I gave you crap about this before I assume that was directed at me...

If not well then hush my mouth.

I will say I am loving these photos.

I emailed a rich Denver friend today and told him he NEEDS to join this club... I was informed he was a personal friend of one of the Neals and thus joining isn't necessary... so you see friends and money do come in handy.

 ;D

A_Clay_Man

Re:No More Pegs!
« Reply #42 on: October 03, 2005, 06:23:58 PM »
You do not have to hush.



This is the seventh green. The "E" shape is not the first I've seen, but it is the most beautiful.

THuckaby2

Re:No More Pegs!
« Reply #43 on: October 03, 2005, 06:29:48 PM »
Holey moley... that's all green surface?

I'd love to see a pin on the middle prong of the E, far right...

Yowza.

Methinks meknows what the trip to beg for next year is gonna be.

 ;D

RJ_Daley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:No More Pegs!
« Reply #44 on: October 03, 2005, 07:07:58 PM »
Wouldn't you just love to find yourself alone on that green about 1/2 hour before sunset with a favorite chipping club, sand wedge and putter.  I'll bet there a hundreds of combo shots and putts you can make from one tier to the other, or just off the green on various parts of the surrounds.  This will be take the place of the excitement many get in a boomer green.
No actual golf rounds were ruined or delayed, nor golf rules broken, in the taking of any photographs that may be displayed by the above forum user.

A_Clay_Man

Re:No More Pegs!
« Reply #45 on: October 03, 2005, 07:37:56 PM »
Glad you mentioned the surrounds. The green's size is difficult to gauge from this photo. The entire leftside is a kickplate from god. Litterally? We'll never know. Or will we? It's just another wonderful day in the life, on gca.com

Kenny Lee Puckett

Re:No More Pegs!
« Reply #46 on: October 04, 2005, 01:30:27 PM »
Get rid of the tees...please!

Driver off of the deck is my $ shot!

Do it!

In regards to distance, I lose about 20 yards in neutral conditions, but hit many more fairways.  I use the 8.5 degree driver off of the deck every time I need to hit the fairway.

JWK

A_Clay_Man

Re:No More Pegs!
« Reply #47 on: October 04, 2005, 01:39:57 PM »
James, Another vote for the accuracy quotient. Thank You. I wonder if 20 yards is enough for the proponents? I wonder if Forrrrrest has ever even tried it? Yet opines definitively.

Forrest Richardson

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:No More Pegs!
« Reply #48 on: October 04, 2005, 01:40:12 PM »
James...so, if you lose 20 yards may I extrapolate that a tour player might lose 30+? That would be fine with me, and also William Flynn who professed "Accuracy, Carry and [then] Length."
— Forrest Richardson, Golf Course Architect/ASGCA
    www.golfgroupltd.com
    www.golframes.com

Forrest Richardson

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:No More Pegs!
« Reply #49 on: October 04, 2005, 01:48:48 PM »
I only hit a driver about 220...my 3-wood (yes, wood) about 200. I am guessing that I would lose 20 yards without a tee...but I would also make more thoughtful club selection based on the situation and conditions.

With conditions being such an interesting part of the game...we lose this on 14 shots due to the wooden tee.

As noted...I have tried the game of no tee. It's fun.
« Last Edit: October 04, 2005, 01:49:12 PM by Forrest Richardson »
— Forrest Richardson, Golf Course Architect/ASGCA
    www.golfgroupltd.com
    www.golframes.com

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