European Club versus the Kingsbarns

[Ian Andrew]

*I have not played Kingsbarns, so unfortunately I can not participate in this dicussion.

A friend of mine made a very interesting statement after playing both of these courses within a year of each other.

"The European Club is a modern looking course that plays like a links course, whereas Kingsbarns looks just like a true links, but plays like a modern course"

He went on to say that the European Club has all the lies, bounces and luck that we had enjoyed at the other Irish Links; whereas at Kingsbarns felt like a homage to the great links, but lacked some of the luck and randomness found in Scotland.

I would appreciate people weighing in on this notion.

[ForkaB]

*I have not played the European Club, but that won't stop me from answering!

Ian

Kingsbarns was shaped (albeit with a lot of interesting humps and hillocks added by Robert Price).  The Eurpoean Club (I assume) was just mowed.  It takes time for the micro-movements in the land to evidence themselves.  Given the nature of the soil at Kingsbarns, I suspect this will eventually occur.

PS--for a Masterclass in the difference between mowing and shaping a course on linksland, see the two courses at Ballyliffin (assuming that Faldo hasn't bulldozed the Old course in his current work there).  The Glashedy has D-9 written all over it.  The Old could only have been shaped by the wind, the rain and the treading and scraping of golfers over time.

[David Druzisky]

Ian,

I too have not played European but I have played Kingsbarns and toured it another time.

I think those statements about Kingsbarns are a good observation.  The overall spirit of the place is great from the time you drive up to the modest and fitting clubhouse with the parking hidden behind some mounds out of site left of hole 1. No huge expanses of concrete for carts.   It is a place you just want to hang around - like at Bandon.  The course is very enjoyable but I can see that it does have some aspects that are a bit more slick than what you would get on some of the old links (or those just placed on linksland I guess).  It does not have as many of those little quirks and inconsistencies that you might find appealing with other links or old golf.  It also has more visible off the tee where as it seems a lot of other links courses have that big vista feel but you are still down and grounded in the holes.  I felt a bit more exposed at Kingsbarns while at most of the older links courses the dunes protect you from the ocean.

With these aspects in mind they probably are part of Kingsbarns appeal for many and success in the marketplace.  With its location I would assume they get a lot of tourist traffic and those are things that most tourist golfers enjoy really.

[Ian Andrew]

Sean,

The European club is more lush than the other two for sure. I found I was still able to play the ground game (putter from well out) around the greens though. Portmarnock was in the middle of the three with The Island very firm and fast or sparse depending on who you ask   (no irrigation the likely reason)

Every links course we played was firm , likely due to the prolonged good weather they said came before we arrived.  

David and Rich,

Thanks for the responses, you both sent me off to the web site to look at images. I am looking forward to seeing Kingsbarns, and seeing if this opinion is correct.

[Tom_Doak]

Ian:  I am playing Kingsbarns twice next week in the Dunhill tournament, so I'll come back later to tell you how I think it is playing.  Last I saw it, the course "played like" a links in terms of being fast and firm and a lot of short grass around the greens; but there are not any random bounces in the fairways there.  The contouring is natural in appearance but they left out anything which would smack of an "unfair" bounce.

I have only seen The European Club in photos.  It looks a lot like Royal Birkdale ... long holes in between big dunes, but again, no bad bounces out into the roughs.

[Robert Thompson]

Sean: What didn't you care for at the European Club? I guess you just haven't explained why you hold such an unusual opinion....

[Tiger_Bernhardt]

I did not think the European Club played like a links course either. I feel Kingsbarns will mature into a very good course and the European Club will become a distant memory as the promotion by Ruddy stops.

[Ian Andrew]

Tiger,

"I did not think the European Club played like a links course either."

I've been trying to get my head around the bounces and fairway contours to decide if it played like a links myself. Whether it was lusher conditions or a softened fine grade, I don't think it played like the Island, Portmaronack or County Louth.

On that note, does Royal Portrush have the same sensation. The contours are bold, but the fairways have longer contours than the three previously mentioned.

[Robert Thompson]

Mr Tiger: I think it is a grand overstatement to say the European Club's reputation will disappear once Pat Ruddy slows his promotion.
While I don't care for the 9th or 18th holes, and the bunkering is jarring at the start, the par threes at the European Club are top grade, as is a majority of the rest of the course. There are some exceptional holes on the course. Does 16 good to great holes (including the additional par threes) make a world top 100 course? In the case of the European Club, I think it does.

[Sean Walsh]

I also found The European Club much lusher than I would prefer.  Especially at a time when England and Ireland were going through a dry summer.  So it would seem this lushness was by choice rather than fate.  The course itself was good without ever seeming to hit any great highs.

I heartily enjoyed Kingsbarns and it did play firm and fast.  On the windy day I played it was typical links golf.  Though if one compares it to the grat natural humpiness of either St Andrews or Ballyliffin Old, it is found wanting on this count.  To my mind only on this count.  Some find the 18th a little jarring with the burn in front and an aerial approach required, not the best hole on the course but by no means a catastrophic end to a great round.  

In Ireland there are many course I would play before heading back to the European Club.  In Scotland there are few (St Andrews, Brora-  a personal choice) I would play before reaquanting myself with Kingsbarns.

Tom, Who's the lucky Pro?  What a great gig.  Seems there is a little cream to be savoured from a thriving arcitecture business. Good Luck

 

[RJ_Daley]

Tom, forget which pro you'll be set up with.  Get yourself in the 4some with Michael Douglas who seems to always play in that pro-am tournament.  The wife gallery will be well worth it.

[Tiger_Bernhardt]

Robert, I really mean the European Club was the biggest diappointment of any course in that part of the world. It is not top anything for me in Ireland which is not a real deep market at the top. If one can call it greater Dublin, then I put it below all the courses Ian mentioned. I found it to not have the firmness or the sense of style with the ruppled fairlways etc even though they were there. They did not seem to play that way. The holes were not memorable either. I just think it is a major hype job. I played on a great day as well and wished that i would have been back in town playing anywhere. The only reason I would play there again is if every other links course in the area was closed and it was there or a parkland course and even then I would probably play somewhere new.

[Jack_Marr]

There are large distances between the dunes where the fairways lie at the European Club. I think there was a lot of leveling of the fairways there too, and I don't think Ruddy would do this if he was building a course there today.

I used to love playing there when it was IR£30 per round, but now it's gone way up.

I played there when it was soo windy, you had to take a buggy to get around. The windshield on the buggy blew in... The rain hit me in the face so hard it was painful and sea foam rattled accross the course. Even on the down-wind holes, the wind knocked the ball out of the air. You couldn't carry a wedge 80 yds down-wind.

[Robert Thompson]

Tiger: I think you're off your rocker in regards to your comments about the European Club. I'm not sure how one says "I found it to not have the firmness or the sense of style with the ruppled fairlways etc even though they were there." I'm not even sure what that means.
I found the bunkering with the railway ties to perhaps be overdone, but to say the holes along the back nine, especially everything from 10 through to 17 were "not memorable," seems really odd. Not sure what you were looking for, but while I didn't think the European Club wasn't the best on my recent trip, I did think it was a fascinating effort.
Speaking with Ruddy's son in the clubhouse, he said his father hardly moved any land at all. Since the property is linksland by definition, how can it not play like a links? I'm not sure I understand the apparent contradiction. I'm not sure if Ian thinks this wasn't a links -- but if it looks like a links, is built on the land of a links, and -- for the most part -- plays like a links, well then I think the answer is apparent.
And yes, Kingsbarns also plays like a links.

[Tiger_Bernhardt]

Robert, I have been called off my rocker before but it does not apply to feeling the TEC is a hyped up golf course. If you like it, then please enjoy. I for one find it very average and not worth the time and trouble to play. There are far to many really great golfing experiences in Ireland to go there again. I do believe time will not be its friend and it will continue to go down in the eyes of the golfing world. It does not hurt its cause for the Doonbegs of the world to get built either. That will slow the fall.