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Ted Kramer

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I posted this in another thread, but I think the idea worthy of it's own . . .

Hogan once said something along the lines of, "the hole is too small and slants the game too much towards putting".

I've thought long and hard about that idea.
I tend to agree.
In my opinion, it is shot making and shot shaping which should be most important in terms of defining a golfer's greatness.

One problem with this notion is that outstanding GCA is necessary to truly test shot making and shot shaping while a tiny little hole cut into the green will always be really friggin hard to fit your ball into no matter what kind of crap preceded the green and it's surrounds.

I'd like to see a couse set up at 6,800 yards with only 6 holes.
Those six holes can wind and twist and turn and move all over the place. But with only 6 greens; ball striking, shot shaping, and shot making would most certainly rise in importance relative to putting . . .

-Ted
« Last Edit: September 23, 2005, 05:23:18 PM by Ted Kramer »

Brent Hutto

Re:A discussion regarding the importance of putting in modern game
« Reply #1 on: September 23, 2005, 10:30:04 AM »
As an alternative to your suggested game, you could also play an interesting game on a 6,800 yard course with 18 holes but make the holes something like a foot in diameter and don't cut the area around the hole. Depending on how shaggy you leave the 50-yard radius around the hole the final shot on each hole might be an old-fashioned chip-like putting stroke or a true chip or even hacking the ball out of several inches of thick rough.

To take this to its logical extreme, you could end each hole with an 8x8 foot sheet of plywood on a frame standing up to be used as a target for full shots. The hole ends when the ball touches the target. That would eliminate putting, virtually eliminate chipping and would even reduce the influence of pitchign ability. A good ball striker could hit that "side of a barn" pretty often with a mid-iron.

JESII

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Re:A discussion regarding the importance of putting in modern game
« Reply #2 on: September 23, 2005, 10:43:51 AM »
Why don't we just build thousands of four story ranges and hit balls into a net fifty feet in front of us? Afterwards we can go have a steam and a drink.

Jim_Kennedy

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:A discussion regarding the importance of putting in modern game
« Reply #3 on: September 23, 2005, 10:45:59 AM »
Ted,
What defines a great golfer is his or her ability to win. Johnny Miller once said that Tom Watson was the hardest guy to beat because he would drive it into the rough, hit it into a greenside bunker, blast it out to 20' and then drain the putt while Miller would split the fairway, hit it to 15', miss the birdie and tap in for the same score as Watson. That'll wear on you.
Without the significance that putting holds we may never have heard of Watson.    
"I never beat a well man in my life" - Harry Vardon

Ted Kramer

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:A discussion regarding the importance of putting in modern game
« Reply #4 on: September 23, 2005, 10:54:43 AM »
Why don't we just build thousands of four story ranges and hit balls into a net fifty feet in front of us? Afterwards we can go have a steam and a drink.

That might qualify as the most thoughtless, pointless, attempted contribution to a discussion group that I have ever read.

If you think that hitting golf balls into a net 50 feet away has anything to do with shot making and or shot shaping, I have no desire to continue this conversation with you. Other people however might choose to discuss the idea's merits, so maybe you will just do me and any of the rest of us the favor of simply bowing out . . .

Thanks,
Ted


Dan Kelly

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Re:A discussion regarding the importance of putting in modern game
« Reply #5 on: September 23, 2005, 10:55:29 AM »
I don't even know if I believe this (it's a brand-new "thought"!), but I'll say it and (maybe) see what you think:

Almost everything that makes golf a great game -- a game with a moral component; a game that can teach us about life at large -- happens BECAUSE, at the end of the hole, you have to put the little ball into the little hole.

Eliminate putting, or make it less important, and golf loses its soul.

"There's no money in doing less." -- Joe Hancock, 11/25/2010
"Rankings are silly and subjective..." -- Tom Doak, 3/12/2016

JESII

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:A discussion regarding the importance of putting in modern game
« Reply #6 on: September 23, 2005, 10:59:29 AM »
Hey Ted,

I like your fire this morning, I've not seen it before on here.

Was Dan Kelly maybe a bit more eloquent in saying virtually the same thing though?

Ted Kramer

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:A discussion regarding the importance of putting in modern game
« Reply #7 on: September 23, 2005, 11:02:12 AM »
Ted,
What defines a great golfer is his or her ability to win. Johnny Miller once said that Tom Watson was the hardest guy to beat because he would drive it into the rough, hit it into a greenside bunker, blast it out to 20' and then drain the putt while Miller would split the fairway, hit it to 15', miss the birdie and tap in for the same score as Watson. That'll wear on you.
Without the significance that putting holds we may never have heard of Watson.    

Great point. And I wouldn't want to diminish the importance of winning in determining greatness . . .I'm just not sure that the current game, largely due to issues with equipment, tests shot making the same way that it used to. I think that the importance of putting in the modern game is a bit out of whack when compared to that of shot making.

Look, I love golf and I'm not in favor of changing the game at it's core to prove or make a point. However, I do think that the premium put on putting in today's game detracts from golf as a sport. And I think that it is an interesting idea to discuss . . .

-Ted

Ted Kramer

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:A discussion regarding the importance of putting in modern game
« Reply #8 on: September 23, 2005, 11:07:33 AM »
Hey Ted,

I like your fire this morning, I've not seen it before on here.

Was Dan Kelly maybe a bit more eloquent in saying virtually the same thing though?

Yes, he was more eloquent.
No, he did not say the same thing as you.

-Ted

Jason Topp

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:A discussion regarding the importance of putting in modern game
« Reply #9 on: September 23, 2005, 11:07:59 AM »
For me, nothing is more fun than getting up and down from never-never land to tie a hole when my opponent 3 putts.  

Having said that, I appreciate the issue you identify.  I prefer smaller greens or a dialed back ball to accomplish the same goal.

henrye

Re:A discussion regarding the importance of putting in modern game
« Reply #10 on: September 23, 2005, 11:11:06 AM »
Ted.  It's an interesting thought, but I suspect that when a hole becomes 1,200 feet in length, one would typically use a driver on every hole, a 2 or 3 wood thereafter, maybe a few irons/wedges and a putter.  The game would certainly accentuate the difference between the average player and the pros.

Brent Hutto

Re:A discussion regarding the importance of putting in modern game
« Reply #11 on: September 23, 2005, 11:15:29 AM »
Yep, Dan nailed it. In my opinion, anyone who wants putting reduced or eliminated from the game is scared of missing putts. Or put another way, anyone capable of controlling the ball on a variety of shot shapes and doing it consistently day in and day out is perfectly capable of learning to putt well. Maybe not every touring pro can putt like Ben Crenshaw but not every touring pro hits the ball like Ben Hogan either.

The fact is that in the game's current (and traditional) form ball striking matters a lot. A pretty swing may not matter and the "best swing" by some abstract criteria does not guarantee the "best ballstriking". But hitting the ball far and sure results in lower scores.

When people say for instance that the PGA Tour is basically a putting contest, what they're really observing is that when you have a tournament field in which every single player is capable of striking the ball effectively the difference between first place and fifth or tenth place will be determined by putting. However, that is not the same as saying that putting is the majority of game. Putting is the majority of the difference between one good ballstriker and the next.

To use the Tom Watson example, he might be wild at times but he is one hell of a ballstriker by any standards other than Johnny Miller's or Ben Hogans. He knocks the crap out of the ball and can almost always find it. And he can play all the shots, albeit slightly less effectively than the best shotmakers who have ever lived.

It's a pipe dream to imagine a game where literally all that matters is controlling the ball on full-swing shots. It may be an interesting speculative exercise to try and design a game where Ben Hogan wins every single time he plays against someone who is "only" 99.99999% as skilled at full-swing ball control as Hogan. But for an actual game that engages millions of people and makes for compelling theater when played at the highest level the traditional game including chipping and putting works well. Yes, it may be that Ben Hogan can't win every time against some 2% worse at ballstrking who's a great putter. But it's still a fair contest and a fascinating game.

The "best" game IMO is one where a variety of physical skills and a variety of mental skills matter to the outcome. I think golf does that as well as any game I know of. Anyone who wants to reduce it to full shots wants to play a less interesting and meaningful game. And anyone who thinks the necessity of putting the ball into a very small target in some way detracts from the game is wishing to see the mental and emotional component of dealing with fear eliminated.

Ted Kramer

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:A discussion regarding the importance of putting in modern game
« Reply #12 on: September 23, 2005, 11:35:13 AM »
Nothing in my post suggests elimintating putting and or changing the size of the hole. I think that getting the ball into that hole is a fundamental part of the game. . .

I only wonder if the evolution of the game has placed more emphasis on putting than was originally there.

-Ted

JESII

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:A discussion regarding the importance of putting in modern game
« Reply #13 on: September 23, 2005, 11:56:53 AM »
Ted,

After re-reading these posts I am more convinced Dan and I said virtually the same thing. My post implies that by reducing or eliminating putting (which you have said is not your plan, but your plan moves down that road) you lose the essence of the game.

Should shot making be the most important part of the game? I don't know or care, but when you say "outstanding GCA is required to truly test shot making" and that putting "... will always be really friggin hard....no matter what precedded it" shows a lack of understanding of the make up of a golf hole and golf strategy.

If you and I are playing a hole and you hit a very nice drive into the left side of the fairway and I'm on the right. You now have the best angle into the back right pin. I hit my approach at the hole but due to the more difficult angle I am left with a tough 10 footer, while you hit a great shot in 10 feet below the hole. Odds are you will win this hole, not every time but the betting money would be in your favor. It seems to me that solid shot making played a very large in the outcome here and every hole plays out like this every time. Just pay attention. Maybe it's by accident but the guy in the better putting position will win the hole most and you get into that position with shot making and shaping.

1000+ yard holes would be no less brutally boring than hitting into a net 50 feet in front of you.

Jim_Kennedy

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:A discussion regarding the importance of putting in modern game
« Reply #14 on: September 23, 2005, 12:08:18 PM »
Ted,
I played a course in Fl a couple years ago that had an older type of Bermuda grass on it's greens. Putting was named after that old comedic duo, Poke and Hope. I labored over four footers, nothing went straight into the cup, everything snapped one way or the other. Everything looked fast but wasn't, unless you were downgrain. Lagging wasn't as much of a problem but it still required some serious contemplation.
This experience leads me to believe that birdies were more rare on greens from Hogan's era, unless you stuck it very close. No problem for him.
If there is a greater emphasis today on putting I think it's due more to the near-perfect conditions of the greens themselves than it is the equipment we use to get the ball there.
"I never beat a well man in my life" - Harry Vardon

Ted Kramer

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:A discussion regarding the importance of putting in modern game
« Reply #15 on: September 23, 2005, 12:18:19 PM »
Ted,

After re-reading these posts I am more convinced Dan and I said virtually the same thing. My post implies that by reducing or eliminating putting (which you have said is not your plan, but your plan moves down that road) you lose the essence of the game.

Should shot making be the most important part of the game? I don't know or care, but when you say "outstanding GCA is required to truly test shot making" and that putting "... will always be really friggin hard....no matter what precedded it" shows a lack of understanding of the make up of a golf hole and golf strategy.

If you and I are playing a hole and you hit a very nice drive into the left side of the fairway and I'm on the right. You now have the best angle into the back right pin. I hit my approach at the hole but due to the more difficult angle I am left with a tough 10 footer, while you hit a great shot in 10 feet below the hole. Odds are you will win this hole, not every time but the betting money would be in your favor. It seems to me that solid shot making played a very large in the outcome here and every hole plays out like this every time. Just pay attention. Maybe it's by accident but the guy in the better putting position will win the hole most and you get into that position with shot making and shaping.

1000+ yard holes would be no less brutally boring than hitting into a net 50 feet in front of you.

Ok, I'll play 1,000 yard holes from here to eternity while you hit balls into that net of yours. I'll be walking, experiencing different lies, playing from a variety of angles, hitting both long and short approaches, flying the ball into some greens and bouncing it into others; I'll be chipping, putting, pitching, flopping, skipping, and checking, balls on and around the greens . . .
Have fun with your net.

-Ted

JESII

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:A discussion regarding the importance of putting in modern game
« Reply #16 on: September 23, 2005, 12:22:47 PM »
I'll probably be having a drink while getting a steam. :-*

Ted Kramer

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:A discussion regarding the importance of putting in modern game
« Reply #17 on: September 23, 2005, 12:24:21 PM »
I'll probably be having a drink while getting a steam. :-*
;)
Cheers.
-Ted

A_Clay_Man

Re:A discussion regarding the importance of putting in modern game
« Reply #18 on: September 23, 2005, 03:27:14 PM »
The putting green is the only place an average Joe like me, can come close to having anywhere near the abilities of a good player. Shotmaking died when the canvas became to soft for the pammpered.

Ted Kramer

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:A discussion regarding the importance of putting in modern game
« Reply #19 on: September 23, 2005, 03:33:08 PM »
The putting green is the only place an average Joe like me, can come close to having anywhere near the abilities of a good player. Shotmaking died when the canvas became to soft for the pammpered.

I agree with your comment regarding the death of shotmaking.
But to explore the other comment you made a little further. . .

Do you think that creating a situation where an "average Joe" can compete with a "good player" is something to aspire towards? What is a "good player" if an "average Joe" can compete with him?

-Ted
« Last Edit: September 23, 2005, 03:47:01 PM by Ted Kramer »

Tim Taylor

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Re:A discussion regarding the importance of putting in modern game
« Reply #20 on: September 23, 2005, 04:36:59 PM »
Then the Japanese and not the Koreans would be ascendant in the sport ;)

TimT

Why don't we just build thousands of four story ranges and hit balls into a net fifty feet in front of us? Afterwards we can go have a steam and a drink.

John Keenan

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:A discussion regarding the importance of putting in modern game
« Reply #21 on: September 23, 2005, 04:44:50 PM »
First under full disclosure  I like to putt

Putting is a great equalizer in golf. Look at some of the big bombers such as Hank K, his putting is weak and therefore Fred Funk or the Boss of the Moss can win. Ok only once and a while but none the less they can.

Michael Campbell was struggling prior to the US Open with his putting he improves and guess what he wins.

The ability to get up and down is a critical skill in golf and a great equalizer.
The things a man has heard and seen are threads of life, and if he pulls them carefully from the confused distaff of memory, any who will can weave them into whatever garments of belief please them best.

Jonathan Cummings

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Re:A discussion regarding the importance of putting in modern game
« Reply #22 on: September 23, 2005, 04:47:05 PM »
Do you know that Hogan once advocated putts counting as 1/2 not 1 shot??  

It's a fascinating scoring study to go back to your past 20 scores and see what impact on your handicap occurs if you only count putts as half points.  

Aggresive, heroic and inspired play from tee-to-green becomes infinitely more important then how "on" your putting is.

JC  

henrye

Re:A discussion regarding the importance of putting in modern game
« Reply #23 on: September 23, 2005, 04:49:13 PM »
Come on Ted - you're talking 1,000 yard holes.  It will all come down to how far you hit your driver and fairway woods.  You'll take away the putting, but you'll also take away most of the rest of the short game too.

A_Clay_Man

Re:A discussion regarding the importance of putting in modern game
« Reply #24 on: September 23, 2005, 05:01:50 PM »

Do you think that creating a situation where an "average Joe" can compete with a "good player" is something to aspire towards?

-Ted
Yes I do. why not? The scorecard asks how many, not how.
If an average joe can putt better than the good player, who is the good player?
If a great putter struggles off the tee, and with his irons on approach, is he a bad player?