News:

Welcome to the Golf Club Atlas Discussion Group!

Each user is approved by the Golf Club Atlas editorial staff. For any new inquiries, please contact us.


mark chalfant

  • Karma: +0/-0
Scarboro(Tilly) or Rosedale(Ross) /Toronto
« on: September 18, 2005, 01:26:33 PM »
Im curious about  the respective strengths of these two courses near Toronto. Did one architect initially have superior land to route the course? How do these compare  in terms green complexes, quirk, and strategy
Thanks

Wayne_Kozun

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Scarboro(Tilly) or Rosedale(Ross) /Toronto
« Reply #1 on: September 18, 2005, 02:10:43 PM »
I am a member at Scarboro but I have never played Rosedale so I can't compare the two.  I do believe that Rosedale has been substantially renovated in recent years so I don't know how much of Ross' work remains in the course.

Scarboro has also had some major changes, particularly #8 and #13, but I don't think the changes are as substantial as what has been done at Rosedale.

Scarboro has several short par 4's - 7, 15 and 16 are all under 300 yards but are not necessarily weak holes although I would argue that 16 is the weakest of the bunch.

Three of the four par 3s at Scarboro are rather long at about 200 yards but two of them play shorter as the tees are rather elevated from the greens.  All three of these holes are difficult pars.  The other par 3 is only abou 110 yards but is surrounded by bunkers on all four sides.

The other distinguising feature of Scarboro is that the 18th tee shot is played over a road.  Scarboro also has a 19th hole - a 130 yard par 3.

Scarboro was originally laid out by George Cumming who was the pro at Toronto Golf Club in the early days of the 20th century.  Apparently the property was considered for the Toronto Golf Club when they relocated circa 1910 but they decided to go west of Toronto rather than east.

When Scarboro decided to do major renovations circa 1924 they first hired Willie Park Jr., but he fell ill and passed away before he could do any work on the course.  The club then gave the job to Tilly.  The club bought some additional land that includes the location of the current second hole so that hole was completely designed by Tilly.

Scarboro has changed through the years as trees have grown up, others died, particlarly from Dutch Elm disease, and as the Highland Creek has changed course and gotten much wider.  The course suffered substantial flooding and creekbed erosion just four weeks ago during a flash rain storm that caused havoc at several Toronto area courses.

I am working on a "My Home Course" article for Scarboro that should be done in a few weeks.

wsmorrison

Re:Scarboro(Tilly) or Rosedale(Ross) /Toronto
« Reply #2 on: September 18, 2005, 05:46:37 PM »
"I am working on a "My Home Course" article for Scarboro that should be done in a few weeks."

I look forward to that, Wayne.  We need more MHC write-ups.  I find these very interesting.  I think Dan Hermann is finishing up his on French Creek and there are a few more in the works.  

I'll tell you, as much as they contribute in other ways, I think Pat Mucci and Tom Paul (after he's finished the Flynn book) need to contribute in this department.

Jeff_Mingay

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Scarboro(Tilly) or Rosedale(Ross) /Toronto
« Reply #3 on: September 18, 2005, 05:57:47 PM »
It's been too long since I've visited Rosedale (in fact, I need to return soon to have another look), so it's tough for me to compare the two courses.

However, I'm very familiar with Scarboro. I think Scarboro is one of the most under-rated courses in Canada. It's not in a very desireable section of the city, which drags the course down a bit in the eyes of some.

Nonetheless, there are many excellent holes laid out over a very interesting piece of ground. The par-3 second is one of the very best one-shot holes in Canada. And, as Wayne mentioned, a couple of the short par-4s are excellent as well; particularly the seventh and fifteenth. These two holes really are outstanding.

I also like the short par-3 eleventh,  with its tiny, titled green encircled by sand, a lot.  

Moreover, the Scarboro clubhouse is one of the best in Canadian golf. It's beautiful. And, that nineteenth hole Wayne also mentions, plays with the clubhouse as a backdrop. It's a very attractive, memorable conclusion to a round of golf at Scarboro.
« Last Edit: September 18, 2005, 05:59:41 PM by Jeff_Mingay »
jeffmingay.com

Ben Cowan-Dewar

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Scarboro(Tilly) or Rosedale(Ross) /Toronto
« Reply #4 on: September 18, 2005, 05:58:36 PM »
Wayne K,
I did not know you were a member out at Scarboro. You have a great place to tee it up.

Mark,
Rosedale's land is very similar to Scarboro's, in that both play from high points down into river valleys, before returning to higher ground.

Rosedale's great advantage is the location, which is in Toronto's wealthiest area and thus provides a serene course in the heart of the downtown. Scarboro also has a lovely feeling in the valley, but is bordered by apartment buildings at 10/11 and 13/14. Therefore, Rosedale's setting and location are more desirable.

The renovations at Rosedale have not been overly substantial. Cupp and later Carrick redid the finishing hole, which has always been the weakest link in the course and Cupp did a little other work. Other than that though, much of the course remains. I have a fondness for Rosedale and its collection of holes, however Scarboro may be the slightly better course. Scarboro's bones are better and with a bunker restoration and a few tree removals it could be short listed for the handful of best courses in the country. Rosedale will never be confused with the five best, but it is serene, perfectly maintained and would probably get the edge for those reasons by most who have played them both.

Interestingly, I would strongly consider Scarboro's 7th as one of the finest short par fours in our country. Scarboro does have a number of great or near great holes, which to me give it the edge in this comparison.

Jeff_Mingay

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Scarboro(Tilly) or Rosedale(Ross) /Toronto
« Reply #5 on: September 18, 2005, 06:06:05 PM »
Ben,

Do you like the seventh better than the fifteenth, in regard to comparing the two best short par-4s at Scarboro?

Just curious,
jeffmingay.com

Wayne_Kozun

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Scarboro(Tilly) or Rosedale(Ross) /Toronto
« Reply #6 on: September 18, 2005, 06:12:24 PM »
I prefer 7 as it gives you more options.  You can try to drive the green or lay up.  Given the elevation up to the 15th green and the bunker fronting it - it is harder to drive the green.

On 7 you could also try to run the ball up to the green along the ground.  The 15th requires a pitch to a very elevated green.

The greens are both tiny and severely sloped back to front.  When the greens are fast it is very easy to putt off of either green.

Rumour has it that in the 1940 Canadian Open Sam Snead lost his drive during one of the rounds on 15.  He reloaded, drove the green and sunk the putt for a par.

Ben Cowan-Dewar

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Scarboro(Tilly) or Rosedale(Ross) /Toronto
« Reply #7 on: September 18, 2005, 07:32:19 PM »
Jeff,
I vastly prefer seven, for the reasons Wayne specified as well.

The 15th from the back tees, which makes the hole, really does not allow the green to be drived. The seventh along with the 10th at Riviera are two of the better holes for the 10 handicapper to beat a pro. I love its variety.

michael_j_fay

Re:Scarboro(Tilly) or Rosedale(Ross) /Toronto
« Reply #8 on: September 18, 2005, 09:47:35 PM »
I've been to Rosedale recently and can aver that it is a wonderful club on one of the premier properties that any course occupies.

It sits on 156 acres in the epicenter of Toronto.

The course was dramatically altered in the '80's and some of the stuff done to it was nearly criminal. A long par three was turned into one of the absolute worst, stupid par four holes I have ever seen anywhere. This hole features a banana-shaped bunker that is built into the side of a hill and the center of the bunker is 18 inches wide. The hole now plays about 290 with a manufactured hill fronting the green on which the bunker sits.

There is a great deal of artificial mounding that sticks out like a sore thumb on an otherwise nicely flowing landscape. On about five of the hole back bunkers were cut right into the greens. They all pitch downhill to a green going away from the player.

This renovation is as bad as I have seen.

Over the bar in the 19th hole is the only gold medal ever presented in the Olympics. It was won by George Lyons a member at Rosedale Golf may have been removed from the Olympics because when the medal was presented to the winner he walked to the podium from the back of the room on his hands.

Phil_the_Author

Re:Scarboro(Tilly) or Rosedale(Ross) /Toronto
« Reply #9 on: September 18, 2005, 11:24:00 PM »
Michael,

George Lyon won this in 1904, but that was not all that he was accomplished in. He was also a world class cricket player who held the Canadian record of 238 runs and none out. A number of great golfers during these times also were skilled in other sports just as George was.

In 1907 he was the playing Captain on a team of Canadian golfers who hosted and competed against a squad of American players. This is historically significant because it was the first time a team of American golfers traveled outside of the U.S. to play a match against another country. The playing Captain for the American team? A.W. Tillinghast.

Tilly also had the pleasure of playing on a cricket team that competed against a Canadian team with Lyon on it. In my Tilly bio I have a family photograph of Tilly as a young man in 1892 with his cricket team from Philadelphia and another from the same time period with his football team. In addition to this, Tilly was a high school champion in the 440-yard dash. His granddaughter still has this medal.

Sean_A

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Scarboro(Tilly) or Rosedale(Ross) /Toronto
« Reply #10 on: September 19, 2005, 04:29:18 AM »
Philip

Somebody recently told me that the Canadian v USA cricket match with Tilly on board was the first international team match of any sort that is recorded in history.  Does anybody know if there is any truth to this?

Ciao

Sean
New plays planned for 2024: Nothing

Phil_the_Author

Re:Scarboro(Tilly) or Rosedale(Ross) /Toronto
« Reply #11 on: September 19, 2005, 10:37:46 AM »
Sean,

You asked, "Somebody recently told me that the Canadian v USA cricket match with Tilly on board was the first international team match of any sort that is recorded in history.  Does anybody know if there is any truth to this?"

I don't believe this is so. I believe that the person who told you this may have been confused with what happened in a few different events that Tilly was involved in. Here is my reasoning.

The date for the CRICKET match in which Tilly played against Lyon is unknown to all of his family members and I have never been able to find any records for it other than the article in which Tilly made mention. Without a date, how can anyone claim it as the first? It probably occurred before 1895, as this was the year of his first trip to Scotland. That trip ignited his passion for golf as almost nothing else would throughout his entire life. The only thing that would stoke the flames of this passion even higher was his second trip over to St. Andrews in 1898. He came back from this one and designed his first golf course in Frankford, Pa. From this time onward, Golf was everything to him.

We know that he was playing Cricket as early as 1892. But his playing in a "first international match" in cricket before this time is problematic because of his age. He was born on May 7th of 1876, and in the summer of 1892 was ONLY 16 years old. It would seem than that his match in which he played against seems to most likely to have been played between 1893 to 1895. Still, it appears that this is another sport at which Tilly was very talented. The photo of him with his team in 1892 shows him in the center and this hints at his being among the better players. Also, his moustache is pretty strong and one would guess at an age of at least the early 20's for him. The problem is that the photo has a date of 1892 on it placed there by his wife, Lillian. Could she have been wrong when she dated it? There's no way of telling.

So the date for his match is unknown.

Secondly, Tilly wrote an article that appeared in the June 1933 issue of Golf Illustrated titled, "The First International." It may be this occasion that your friend was thinking about. This was the "first encounter between teams of golfers representing England and America. Previous to this there had been team matches between the United States and Canada [all played in the U.S.], but 1903 marked the first crossing of the ocean for the meeting of teams of two continents."

I believe it is this match that he is refering to. J.L. Low captained a team from the Oxford and Cambridge Golfing Society that took on teams representing diferent U.S. cities in a series of matches. Among the courses they were played on were Garden City, Huntingdon Valley and Atlantic City. Tilly played on the Philadelphia team and appeared to have attended all of the matches himself.

By the way, among those who were on the Oxford team - C.H. Alison, who would go on to do, as tilly himself wrote, "some extremely meritorious work as a golf course architect."

Finally, as for any of these matches being the "first international team match of any sort that is recorded in history,"  I believe that the America's Cup yachting matches go back quite a bit further and that this is the first organized international competition, though I could be wrong in this.

Sean_A

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Scarboro(Tilly) or Rosedale(Ross) /Toronto
« Reply #12 on: September 19, 2005, 11:17:30 AM »
Philip

I have just done a bit of research.  America's Cup was first organized and run in 1851 and claims to be the oldest trophy in sport.  An international match between a New York cricket club and a Canadian cricket club (I think Toronto) was supposed to have been staged in 1844.  As far as the BBC know, it is the oldest international sporting match on record.  

So this certainly rules Tilly off the pitch by quite a margin.

Ciao

Sean
New plays planned for 2024: Nothing

Phil_the_Author

Re:Scarboro(Tilly) or Rosedale(Ross) /Toronto
« Reply #13 on: September 19, 2005, 11:41:40 AM »
Sean,

Great research! I'm certainly glad that Tilly wasn't around for that early match... golf would have suffered an eternal lost if he had.

Phil

Wayne_Kozun

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Scarboro(Tilly) or Rosedale(Ross) /Toronto
« Reply #14 on: September 19, 2005, 12:01:36 PM »
Harvard and McGill played a football/rugby match in 1874 so this would also predate the Tilly cricket match if you consider universities from different countries to be representing their nations.

Canada remained a colony of Britain until 1867 so the cricket match in 1844 between a New York and Canadian club would have, technically, been a match between America and the United Kingdom.

Dave Kemp

Re:Scarboro(Tilly) or Rosedale(Ross) /Toronto
« Reply #15 on: September 19, 2005, 08:23:53 PM »
Wayne,

I am with you on the 7 vs 15 discussion.  I have only played Scarboro twice but I do recall the one time I ended up behind 7th green and had to pitch back to a middle pin.  Tough shot.

I was last out to the course the Monday after the storm reviewing the bridges with your superintendent.  He and his staff were working hard at getting the course re-opened.  Hope it is getting back to its excellent condition.


Wayne_Kozun

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Scarboro(Tilly) or Rosedale(Ross) /Toronto
« Reply #16 on: September 19, 2005, 11:12:23 PM »
I was last out to the course the Monday after the storm reviewing the bridges with your superintendent.  He and his staff were working hard at getting the course re-opened.  Hope it is getting back to its excellent condition.
The staff did an excellent job and the course reopened about 5 days after the storm.  There is still some minor damage to the creekbed that only slightly affects play on a few holes, particularly #6.  And there are still a couple of bunkers out of play, but not bad considering the storm.

It is amazing how a flowing body of water can reshape land - Highland Creek at Scarboro was a wee stream when the course was built 90 years ago (there is a picture of this on page 104 of Tilly's Gleanings from the Wayside).  Now it is a river that is about 10 yards wide at most points.

Tags:
Tags:

An Error Has Occurred!

Call to undefined function theme_linktree()
Back