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Mike_Sweeney

How about an alternate green on Sand Hills # 4 ?
« on: September 16, 2005, 04:24:31 PM »
I recently played a 9 hole course where Ron Prichard put in an alternate green with a separate pin for those that play a full 18 holes on the course. The second green was set about 15-20 yards back and left on a slight dogleg left. I thought it was fun to have an alternate green. We have alternate tees, dual fairways, but very few alternate greens in golf. This is probably due to cost and space at most clubs, but at Sand Hills that is not an issue.

There has been much talk from Mr Paul about Sand Hills # 4 this summer, and I believe that he would like to place the green in position "C". However, it looks like it could get in the way of the 5th hole tee that plays the 5th hole as a straight hole. See the golfers walking.



Now my favorite tee on #5 is slightly above alternate greensite "B", where the the hole plays as a dogleg right, and the centerline bunker still comes into play. While it is not crowded out there are you are up high, this dogleg tee shot is over the current 4th green.

Thus, I propose that Sand Hills should add an alternate green in position "B" or "A", and you would use that green and then play the 5th hole as a dogleg. On other days, you would play the current green or Tom's "C" position and play the 5th as a straight away hole.

Green B - Here the hole would still play as a Par 4 with the Christian Greco bunker coming into play on the second shot as an aerial shot.

Green A - Here it could be a Par 5, and the big Christian bunker would be in the landing zone?

Opinions?

Tom_Doak

  • Karma: +2/-1
Re:How about an alternate green on Sand Hills # 4 ?
« Reply #1 on: September 16, 2005, 04:28:46 PM »
Here's an opinion.  You're nuts!  :)  

How can you say a golf course is the best course in the world, and then suggest building a new green there?

The implication is that you must be smarter than the architect of that course ... and since it's the best course ever, that you must also be smarter than every other golf course architect who ever lived.

Jimmy Muratt

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:How about an alternate green on Sand Hills # 4 ?
« Reply #2 on: September 16, 2005, 04:33:54 PM »
Mike,

As intriguing as some of your alternate greensites sound, I wouldn't change a thing on #4.  I think it's one of the great holes in golf just as it is.  It already can play nearly as a Par 5 when the wind is into you and you are playing from the "way back" double diamond tee.  

The approach is one of the best on the course.  The huge bunker on the left is a big number waiting to happen so you tend to bail out right.  This usually leaves on the side of the hill which is still a very difficult shot.  

I also love the back tee on #5 that plays over #4 green, it definitely brings the centerline bunker into play in #5 fairway.  


THuckaby2

Re:How about an alternate green on Sand Hills # 4 ?
« Reply #3 on: September 16, 2005, 04:57:31 PM »
TD:

I really think it's only been me who calls Sand Hills the best course on the planet... though Mike can speak for himself, I don't think he put it in that top slot.  I know Tom Paul didn't... he couldn't given all the "improvements" he suggested!

So yes, I think my friend Mike is nuts for wanting an alternate green on one of the great par 4s on this or any other Earth.

But that being said, hmmmm... shots to sites A & B would be darn fun.... but no!  Get over it Huckaby... it's great as it is.

 ;D

Mike_Sweeney

Re:How about an alternate green on Sand Hills # 4 ?
« Reply #4 on: September 16, 2005, 05:14:45 PM »
Here's an opinion.  You're nuts!  :)  

How can you say a golf course is the best course in the world, and then suggest building a new green there?

The implication is that you must be smarter than the architect of that course ... and since it's the best course ever, that you must also be smarter than every other golf course architect who ever lived.

Tom,

This goes back to our old analogy with the politicians. If Churchill was the greatest politician ever, are we not allowed to question some of his moves when he was in a bunker under London during the WWII?

I am not saying that we eliminate or change the current green. That was Tom Paul's question, but I am sure I have his green placement wrong. I love the current hole, why not more?

What I am saying is that the average Sand Hills player plays the course probably 3 or 4 times on a trip, why not a different green site or two over 3 days?

If Matt has the ability to rate the course from all the tees, I am sure he can handle an extra green or two.  ;)
« Last Edit: September 16, 2005, 05:17:36 PM by Mike Sweeney »

ed_getka

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:How about an alternate green on Sand Hills # 4 ?
« Reply #5 on: September 16, 2005, 05:22:43 PM »
Huck,
  I'm with you regarding Sand Hills being the best (of what I have seen so far).

Mike,
   Regarding alternate greens, I think B would be fun. Just call it a new pin position and there will probably be less resistance. ;)

Tom D,
   I don't think Mike is saying the course needs to be improved. He is just pointing out some possible options. Other than cost and maintenance considerations, what would be the problem? Holes have multiple pin positions, multiple hole locations, so why not multiple greensites?
« Last Edit: September 16, 2005, 05:23:46 PM by ed_getka »
"Perimeter-weighted fairways", The best euphemism for containment mounding I've ever heard.

Michael Whitaker

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:How about an alternate green on Sand Hills # 4 ?
« Reply #6 on: September 16, 2005, 06:13:23 PM »
Mike,

Do you mean something like #6 at True Blue?

"Solving the paradox of proportionality is the heart of golf architecture."  - Tom Doak (11/20/05)

Mike_Sweeney

Re:How about an alternate green on Sand Hills # 4 ?
« Reply #7 on: September 16, 2005, 08:38:24 PM »
Mike,

Do you mean something like #6 at True Blue?


Michael,

I know you are selling me on that trip, and I am buying! ;) Yes that is exactly what I mean. The problem is something like #12 at World Woods where there is a huge difference between the two:



The right green is very strong and the left looked like a local muni.

Michael Whitaker

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:How about an alternate green on Sand Hills # 4 ?
« Reply #8 on: September 16, 2005, 10:36:05 PM »
I know you are selling me on that trip, and I am buying!

I'll get you down here someday and let you sample some of the Palmetto State's finest. We might even have you play True Blue just to satisfy your alternate-green fetish.
"Solving the paradox of proportionality is the heart of golf architecture."  - Tom Doak (11/20/05)

Pete Buczkowski

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:How about an alternate green on Sand Hills # 4 ?
« Reply #9 on: September 16, 2005, 10:37:47 PM »
Mike...the World Woods #12 hole is an extreme example of what is generally wrong with alternate greensites...the Devil's Cauldron is another.  Both of these holes have an all-world greensite and an alternate that is not nearly as thrilling to play.  In fact at WWPB #12 they have essentially abandoned that left hand greensite.  Last time I was there it was used as a sod farm.  ;)  

I haven't "had the pleasure" of Sand Hills but I'm inclined to think that there are no alternate greens for a reason.  That said, having 2 all-world greensites that are equally fun to play for the repeat visitor could enhance the variety of the course.  The main question: Would that be a good thing?  

TEPaul

Re:How about an alternate green on Sand Hills # 4 ?
« Reply #10 on: September 17, 2005, 03:02:27 AM »
MikeS:

Interesting suggestions.

I'm not sure I should comment as doing so might make me look like I'm trying to be smarter than Bill Coore and Ben Crenshaw which might imply I think I'm better than they are or any other golf architect in history. ;) TomD, my old 9th grade "Logic" teacher just might say you're getting a bit liberal with your "implications" there.  ;)

I have great respect for Ben and Bill and Sand Hills G.C. too. Making the comments I did about #4 green a few months ago were just observations. I don't think I said the green should actually be changed, I think I just said I thought it might play more interesting and optional and look better (more naturally occuring) if it was down to the right at a spot that just flowed with the natural land coming off that huge and impressive blow-out bunker.

I also truly take note of the remarks Tom Huckaby and PeteB made about hole #4 being, in their opinions, one of the great holes of the Earth ;). That sort of reinforces my belief that true "controversy" over a hole, for instance, just might be one of its finest assets, in the end. Who can't say that very strong opinions BOTH WAYS about a golf hole isn't eternally fascinating?

Why did I say the things I did about #4 green? Well, thinking back now I guess I said that for a number of reasons. My recollection when first playing the hole the first day with Pat Mucci (we were playing the tips or Diamond tees) I thought the hole was obviously a very hard and demanding par 4 with a really demanding approach shot. A very high shot value to approaching that green, in other words---not much in the way of alternate approach shot options---just a very high demand one dimensional approach shot "shot value". No problem there at all. To be honest I feel Ben and Bill create a hole or two like this on most of their courses I’ve seen---maybe one or two super long par 4s into the wind or something. I view this as an interesting offering of sort of a “half par” and I really like that (like a few of the long par 4s at Hidden Creek, Easthampton, Friars, and similar to what Tom Doak did on perhaps #4 at Pacific Dunes).

Another reason I might’ve said that about #4 green is when Pat and I got around to maybe #14, I think it was, we very coincidently said to each other almost simultaneously that there was some certain feeling of similarity to the holes of Sand Hills when standing on the tees. That’s a whole different story and issue and the reason we came up with for that is entirely different and not exactly a criticism of the course, merely an observation of the feeling one might get on a course like Sand Hills built out there on land of that immense scale and on that much open land (no trees). We believe, talking to Dick Younsscap, that the golf course itself may encompass something like 500 or more acres. That’s huge and logically one would feel each hole is sort of a separate entity unto itself from each tee in that immense open expanse of land. No problem there either (Pat and I decided) since the holes played differently enough once you hit your tee shots and once you got over the impression of standing on tees just looking out at another green swath in a sea of brown rolling natural land and blowouts and another separate green entity with no real view of another hole next to it. This is really ironic, if one thinks about it, in that when standing on those tees all one can basically see is the separate entity of the hole in front of you when while you stand on Ben’s Porch you can see 16 of the 18 holes down there stretched out before you! An interesting visual juxtaposition, to say the least!

But the other two reasons I might’ve said that about the 4th green is it just seemed to me and to my eye and feel that Sand Hills has about one green and green site too many that feels like its sort of hidden around the corner to the right of some big blowout or some big piece of topography. This would include #4, #14 and a much shorter version, #8. But the last reason I might’ve said that about #4 green is because Dick Youngscap told me the story about the creation of the 4th green, in that all the other 17 greens are natural landforms that cost $300 each to do and #4 cost $40,000. I just sort of wondered why that was (I think Dick did too ;) ), particularly as #4 looks to me like it really was a “man-made” affair just sort of “shelved” up into the hillside against that massive blowout bunker.





« Last Edit: September 17, 2005, 03:13:38 AM by TEPaul »

TEPaul

Re:How about an alternate green on Sand Hills # 4 ?
« Reply #11 on: September 17, 2005, 03:47:57 AM »
So being out there for about four days or so I started looking at that green site closely and began to wonder what the hole would look like and play like if the green had been built as an extension of what must have been a left to right canting grade off that huge blowout.

To me with a big long par 4 like that one a green to the right at the end of the extension of what must have been a left to right canting grade off that big blowout on the left would've looked more in scale (it would've widened out the green-end of the hole) and the playability of it I think would've been more interesting in that it would've been more multi-optional. In other words the golfer could play a long iron or wood somewhat close to that big blowout and kick it or let it filter left to right onto a green I'd visualize as running left to right with the land. (Tom D; although it wouldn't look exactly the same it would feel and play something like your excellent 6th green and green-end at Stonewall). If a golfer really hit a long drive on that hole he could go at a green running left to right a bit more directly with a shorter club.

But if they did that on #4 it would play a lot like one of the options of the approach to #10 (another wonderful long par 4 that runs along a left to right grade all the way). The difference in look would be that with #4 green it would be in plain view from anywhere on that hole while on #10 if your tee shot is right the green is somewhat hidden behind topography on the right. #4 would in that way be the same basic left to right kick or filter approach shot with the opposite look to it. (#3 is a tee shot that also plays with a left to right "kick" off the front portion of the green or the end of the approach.

But then either on here or off-line TomD said he felt that Ben and Bill built #4 green shelved up on the right of that huge blow-out just so they could be closer to it and really use an amazing natural feature more. I can certainly understand the thinking on that even if that does not exactly negate my thinking on and my feeling about all the foregoing.

But in the end I'm not exactly suggesting the hole or anything else about Sand Hills be changed. This kind of detailed opinion-offering about the nuances of golf architecture is just what we do on this web-site. I hope the architects of those courses don't take offense over our opinions. I don't see why they should.

In my opinion, Sand Hills most certainly is one of the great golf courses of the world. The reason I think that is for a whole lot of other reasons, though, and one in particular that was pretty much a total surprise to me when I got there.

TEPaul

Re:How about an alternate green on Sand Hills # 4 ?
« Reply #12 on: September 17, 2005, 04:06:33 AM »
About MikeS's suggestions of an alternate green----that seems pretty interesting and I guess that would work with the different angles of the tees on #5 which certainly does give the next hole different looks and angles and different playabilities.

I'm not sure that I can see exactly where MikeS thinks the alternate green sites of "B" and "C" are, though. Back behind that huge blow-out on the left is a sort of natural amphitheather. One might not notice it that well unless one goes up on the ridge on the left and looks down on it as Neil Regan and I did in a truck with Dan Dailey (Sand Hills's mechanic) prompting people like Pat Mucci (who was playing #4 at the time) to start hollering that we were crazy for looking at the land when we could be playing the course) ;) ).

A green down in the rear of that natural amphitheather sure would be a different look to the other holes of Sand Hills. And if one started thinking how a green back in there would play it sure might be interesting. Just think, if you hit a drive down the left side of that fairway you probably couldn't see the green back in there but you'd have pretty much of a straight shot at it. But if you played a drive down the right side of the fairway (next to that right fairway bunker) you probably could see the green back in there but you'd have to sort of play over that enormous blow-out. I'd say if all that were true a green back in there would offer a number of pretty interesting and varied optional tee to green strategies.

I have no idea, though, how a green down to the right of the present green would work drainage-wise and I have no idea how a green in that natural amphitheather to the left and behind that big blow-out would work that way either.

Those kinds of questions, problems and solutions I'd leave to the professional architects!  ;)

Neil Regan

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:How about an alternate green on Sand Hills # 4 ?
« Reply #13 on: September 17, 2005, 04:07:55 AM »
Why not 3 greens ?

Grass speed  <>  Green Speed

Neil Regan

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:How about an alternate green on Sand Hills # 4 ?
« Reply #14 on: September 17, 2005, 04:29:07 AM »
This is the view from our truck ride up on the ridge.
(Dan Dailey, our driver and the course mechanic, is constantly scraping sand from the lower left of the blow-out (where very few balls go) into the often-visited CG bunker to the right in the picture.)

-----
This is the natural amphitheatre.


A closer look at the right side.
You can see Pat and Ran climbing to the 5th tee.


A closer look at the left side.
Pat and Ran are on the 5th tee, maybe 70 yards beyond.
« Last Edit: September 17, 2005, 06:25:55 AM by Neil Regan »
Grass speed  <>  Green Speed

TEPaul

Re:How about an alternate green on Sand Hills # 4 ?
« Reply #15 on: September 17, 2005, 04:46:00 AM »
Neil:

You and your photography are truly AMAZING!

I see you slept late today.  ;)

If I knew you could do all that with photography I would've got you to take more of the landforms that were the app 100 OTHER iterations of what Coore and Crenshaw might've used for holes out there and you could just work up those photographs into holes like you just did for the alternate greens of #4. How in the hell did you get me in that photo pointing right at the right green on #4 I suggested???

Good show.
« Last Edit: September 17, 2005, 04:48:06 AM by TEPaul »

TEPaul

Re:How about an alternate green on Sand Hills # 4 ?
« Reply #16 on: September 17, 2005, 04:57:19 AM »
Neil:

By the way, I think I would've placed a green to the right just about in the spot that's between the two greens on the top photo. I'd like to see it in such a position where a ball might have to come quite close to that blow-out to kick all the way down to the right. Tom Doak made a great point that Coore and Crenshaw wanted to really use that big blow-out strategically and that would've accomplished that more. Not as much as it's being used now with that green shelved up just to the right of it, but the idea would still be in effect.

TEPaul

Re:How about an alternate green on Sand Hills # 4 ?
« Reply #17 on: September 17, 2005, 05:03:27 AM »
Neil:

Furthermore, I want to see you bring a sort of narrowish front section "tongue" way out on that green on the left that sits on a tier just below the green section you put in there.  :)

And if you do a green to the right of the present one I'd like it to be really wide and running on a slight left to right slope (with the natural cant of the land) all the way with a big fairway "kicker" coming off that big blow-out.

TEPaul

Re:How about an alternate green on Sand Hills # 4 ?
« Reply #18 on: September 17, 2005, 05:05:42 AM »
Neil:

Can you meld a portion of the 14th and 15th fairways together too? We'll give Ran credit for that. We might make this Sand Hills G.C. into true "world class" yet!  :) ;)

Neil Regan

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:How about an alternate green on Sand Hills # 4 ?
« Reply #19 on: September 17, 2005, 05:12:21 AM »
Tom,

  I'll see what I can do.
  But first things first.

  Ran and Pat on the 5th tee.

Grass speed  <>  Green Speed

TEPaul

Re:How about an alternate green on Sand Hills # 4 ?
« Reply #20 on: September 17, 2005, 05:30:49 AM »
Neil:

Today, you are definitely on a roll. This is some of the best and funniest stuff I've ever seen on GOLFCLUBATLAS.com. There's no question in my mind that Ran should put that photo of him and that electric green frog that bears an uncanny resemblance to one Pat Mucci on the front page of this web-site PERMANENTLY!

Neil Regan

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:How about an alternate green on Sand Hills # 4 ?
« Reply #21 on: September 17, 2005, 06:18:45 AM »
Neil:

Can you meld a portion of the 14th and 15th fairways together too? We'll give Ran credit for that. We might make this Sand Hills G.C. into true "world class" yet!  :) ;)

I think there's something good in the notion.
Grass speed  <>  Green Speed

ForkaB

Re:How about an alternate green on Sand Hills # 4 ?
« Reply #22 on: September 17, 2005, 08:21:28 AM »
I like the 3-green option, but I think you ought to have each one pinned every day and be allowed to hole out on the one you want.

PS--it looks like Pat was being beamed up to (or down from) his starship.  I always suspected he was a Klingon in disguise......

Peter Galea

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:How about an alternate green on Sand Hills # 4 ?
« Reply #23 on: September 17, 2005, 10:22:26 AM »
Why not 3 greens ?



You know what you get when "it" is design by committee - yup, a camel.

This reminds me of the story about the creation of the 14th green at Carmel Valley Ranch. On a walkthru, Johhny Pott, the pro, Ernie Vossler, one of the principals of Landmark Land, and Pete Dye each had a different idea of where the green should go on this short par 4.
Pete Dye covered all the bases and the green encompassed all three sites. It was a 6-tiered, 100 yard wide, 22 feet deep, serpentine green that had to drop over 20 feet from left to right!
After the redo, it NLE. I don't mean to threadjack, I just had to tell that story.

BTW: very good Photoshop Neil.
"chief sherpa"

TEPaul

Re:How about an alternate green on Sand Hills # 4 ?
« Reply #24 on: September 17, 2005, 10:57:15 AM »
Neil:

Regarding post #22 and the melded fairway on #14 and #15---FANTASTIC job!  ;)

Do you notice how the feel and look of the approach shot up into #15 green feels a lot like the approach shot to the 4th green---eg to a green sort of semi- hidden around a big natural blowout feature on the left?

PeteG:

On that "camel" green on the 14th at Carmel Valley Ranch---if any green on earth needs immediate restoration that would be one! One of the coolest and most outrageously funny creations in the history of golf architecture, in my opinion.  ;)

That's the trouble with some golf architecture today---there's not enough humor in it.  ;)

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