[SL_Solow]

I think we have been a little firmer largely because overwatering can be dangerous during extreme heat.  But Paul has been pretty consistent over the years adapting to varying climatic conditions as needed.  Our biggest problem re firm and fast is that during the years that our course was maintained as a public course (late 30's to late 50's) a significant thatch layer built up under the fairways.  As such it is difficult to get the fairways really firm.  While we have discussed methods of getting rid of the thatch the club has been unwilling to do anything significant to date. That is likely to be my next battle.

[JSlonis]

Regrassing always leads to problems in the long run and runs up the budget aswell.  What I would do, is to regrass at a slow and moderate pace.  Everytime one aerates or verticuts, drop some bentgrass or what ever u are trying to establish and see what happens.  But having poa is not bad.  Just deal with it and change one's turf practices.  

Muni

I don't agree at all. In this part of the country, having a fair amount of Poa in your greens is BAD. How does regrassing lead to problems in the long run?  Regrassing will run the budget up in the short term.  How will it cause increases in the future?

The amount of maintenance required to keep our newer A strain practice greens in good condition verses our regular Poa/Bent greens is not even close.  The amount of $$$ spent on chemicals to regulate the growth of Poa and to keep it from getting diseased every year is a large sum.  While you still have to treat the newer bent greens, there is far more time and $$ spent on keeping the Poa greens somewhat healthy.

[wsmorrison]

Jamie,

Not to mention the course conditioning and playability we can get with the newer bent strains.  We can keep them drier and over time get to the firm and fast conditions the topography merits.

In our difficult region we have two choices (as told to me by Tom Paul as told to him by Stan Zontek) bent kept dry or poa kept wet.  Classic courses like yours and ours in our district are best off dry with the new bents.

Of course Huntingdon Valley retains their old strains of several varieties (including poa) that have been naturally selected over time.  The process that has been in place there for almost two decades ensures ideal conditions when Mother Nature allows.

[Tom_Doak]

I tried to post on this earlier but somehow it didn't show up.  Dan Lucas made most of my points anyway -- thanks Dan.

I can tell you from traveling the world that Poa annua is EVERYWHERE.  The most amazing example I know?  When we started running water trucks around the desert roads at Stone Eagle to keep the dust down at the start of construction, grass started sprouting at the sides of the roads.  Guess what kind of grass?  It was just sitting out there in the desert on top of a hill, at least a mile from any stand of grass, just waiting for some water to come its way!

If you are going to regrass your greens or fairways and change your ways completely in regards to maintenance, you might have a chance.   But just killing the poa and starting over is a short-term fix.

And, in some places [where you don't have to worry about stressing it out because it doesn't get too hot, and/or the Poa has survived occasional droughty periods before], Poa isn't a bad surface anyway.  Most courses in the north and northwest don't fight it ... it really IS the surface for the most part.

[Patrick_Mucci]

I know just about what Oakmont's greens stimp at every day but the last thing I'm gonna do is tell some cockamamy duffus like you what they stimp at every day.

You don't have to.
I've played there and they were nowhere near 13.

13 is akin to putting on linoleum with a little drag, and I'm not refering to you. [/color]

[James Bennett]

I tried to post on this earlier but somehow it didn't show up.  Dan Lucas made most of my points anyway -- thanks Dan.

I can tell you from traveling the world that Poa annua is EVERYWHERE.  The most amazing example I know?  When we started running water trucks around the desert roads at Stone Eagle to keep the dust down at the start of construction, grass started sprouting at the sides of the roads.  Guess what kind of grass?  It was just sitting out there in the desert on top of a hill, at least a mile from any stand of grass, just waiting for some water to come its way!

If you are going to regrass your greens or fairways and change your ways completely in regards to maintenance, you might have a chance.   But just killing the poa and starting over is a short-term fix.

And, in some places [where you don't have to worry about stressing it out because it doesn't get too hot, and/or the Poa has survived occasional droughty periods before], Poa isn't a bad surface anyway.  Most courses in the north and northwest don't fight it ... it really IS the surface for the most part.

Dan Lucas's post was very good.  

My Adelaide club is trying the poa seed-head supression this spring (any day know) for the first time - we run a bent/poa blend (some older Penncross, some 1019/1020/L93).Its about 50/50 mix.

Apparently, you cand find poa from Antartica to the African deserts to the most northern part of the planet.  It is the world's common grass, and will evolve over 50 years into a complex, desirable turf-type in some climates.  The first 10 years are more difficult to put up with though.

From what I have read, the key trick is for the local poa to become a perennial rather than an annual.  This is only possible if the year-round weather is suitable.  If not, you will have annual die-off, and infestation from new (undesirable) poa plants.  Apparently, the highly-developed poa perennial ends up multi-tillered, fine leafed, regrows from its roots and doesn't go to seed.

James B

[tlavin]

Weighing in as a decided layman who has fought the turf battles at several private clubs with bent/poa greens, I have to say that it seems futile to regrass in order to stave off the poa.  Within a couple years, the greens go from that lovely monochromatic look to the speckled, mottled, bruised look as a result of poa infiltration.  In our Chicago climate, bent/poa is the "devil that we know", while the newer strains (L-93 and A-1 etc.) are the "devil that we don't know".  I think that the clubs with the best superintendents are the ones that know how to dance with the familiar devil.  

While I can appreciate why some clubs want to do the novel thing and regrass in an effort to get those perfect looking and perfect rolling greens, I can pretty safely predict that the combination of balllmark problems and typical poa infiltration will result in your greens having a significant percentage of poa within 3-5 years and the process of dealing with the heat/high humidity maintenance issues will return.

One of the clubs that I'm a member at has a group of well-intentioned and well-informed members who ardently believe that we should shut the club down and regrass the entire premises in order to deal with decades of turf problems and half-baked turf solutions.  I'm sure the course would look awesome when it opened the next year, but I'm with Mr. Doak when I say that the poa will come back and the process will just be repeated.

Anybody who tells you that they can regrass a golf course (greens, fairways, whatever) and eliminate the "poa problem" is telling you the truth, but it is likely a temporary truth that will create a new set of maintenance challenges that will have to be dealt with by superintendents who have been trained to deal with the old challenges.

I'd stick with the old.

[Patrick_Mucci]

If German or Velvet bent lasted 40 years before it became overrun by poa why wouldn't it make sense to regrass.

The greens were nearly perfect for a long, long time.

[Dan_Lucas]

The old German bents lasted longer because they didn't worry about watering it until severe drought conditions set in. They didn't care if a ball bounced 20 feet in the air when it hit a green. You were supposed to allow for that.

I've said before, if we didn't have cart traffic I could bake these fairways so that poa wouldn't have a chance to compete. We would still have a little of it, especially during cool damp times but the fescue would rule.

Irrigation control is the best control for poa.

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