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Kyle Harris

Re:Philmont Country Club
« Reply #75 on: September 16, 2005, 10:15:34 AM »
Mike,

Just get rid of the maintenance shed and 10 is a great short 4.

11 is one of the most deliciously quirky par 3s I've ever played.

wsmorrison

Re:Philmont Country Club
« Reply #76 on: September 16, 2005, 10:15:53 AM »
"I would speculate that 10 and 11 at the time of Flynn wasn't 10 and 11 of today."  Are you talking about the North or the South course?  If the South, today the 11th is the par 3 adjacent to the par 4 10th near Pine Road and the tennis courts.  Do you think the routing progression was changed?  Why?

By the way, I took my son John to Sneaky Pete's for his new sneakers, and he madly wanted a Penn State cap.  Well, they didn't have Penn so I got him one.  It has to be that all the Penn caps were gone in a mad rush and there were lots of PSU ones left, right?  He loves his new cap!

You know what, Mike M?  Given the contstraints of fitting in a new course to an existing clubhouse and another golf course, I don't mind the 9th that much.  It looks absolutely bad from the air but isn't as offensive on the ground.  In fact, today it is a lot better than it ever was because you can reach the turn and see the green on the second shot.  It might not get there but technology has made a pretty mediocre hole a bit better.

If you want a scorecard posted, go to golfcourse.com copy it down and post it.  That or scan it, resize it and upload to a storage site is what we'd have to do you lazy Quaker  ;)
« Last Edit: September 16, 2005, 10:21:10 AM by Wayne Morrison »

Kyle Harris

Re:Philmont Country Club
« Reply #77 on: September 16, 2005, 10:21:25 AM »
Wayne,

There was some reordering of the South with the Gordon revisions, including an all new 12 and 13. Depending on how the reordering went, and again, pure speculation, those holes we know as 10 and 11 today may have been something else back then.

At least we know that Flynn was there and it's written down somewhere.

You should get your son one of those shirts they sell in University City that has the Penn crest and "Not Penn State" written above.  ;D

**EDIT** after your edit. I was speaking of the South Course. In looking at the aerial, I guess it depends on which holes were lost to the driving range. 12 and 13 are disconnected from the rest of the routing, and it would seem that the 11th hole probably just went to today's 14th before they were added.
« Last Edit: September 16, 2005, 10:24:34 AM by Kyle Harris »

wsmorrison

Re:Philmont Country Club
« Reply #78 on: September 16, 2005, 10:30:16 AM »
Kyle,

I'll call Dave Gordon and see what he knows.  They did work and I hope we can factor that in the quest for the architectural history.

Again, Flynn's name is not found in any archival materials yet.  Gordon was in a photograph at the opening of the new course and we're speculating that he was with Flynn then so it must be Flynn.  That's not conclusive enough.

When I went to Penn (1974-1978) they had "Not Penn State" and "Univania of Pennsylversity" that were quite popular.  I remember after I got my acceptance letter my guidance counselor told me he was glad I was going to a fine school but be prepared for the size of the campus.  I said it didn't seem that big to me.  He then said you'll really enjoy the football.  I knew at that time Penn maybe won one game a year against Columbia so I asked him what he was talking about, that Penn had a crappy team.  He said they were National Champs recently.  I said, Uhm, sir, I'm going to the University of Pennsylvania, not Penn State.  He didn't know the difference!  At least the University has done a great job fixing their image.  Imagine being mistaken for that dump in the boondocks near Harrisburg  ;D
« Last Edit: September 16, 2005, 10:31:38 AM by Wayne Morrison »

mike_malone

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Philmont Country Club
« Reply #79 on: September 16, 2005, 10:30:28 AM »
Wayne,

   There was no scorecard on Golfcourse.com. Thanks for the advice though.
AKA Mayday

Kyle Harris

Re:Philmont Country Club
« Reply #80 on: September 16, 2005, 10:35:01 AM »
Uhh... 80 miles from Harrisburg...

 ;D

Columbia is typically your homecoming game, right? I know their band does some pretty quirky things. One year, I went to Franklin Field (what a great venue, by the way) and Columbia's band announcer did this whole spoof:

"Columbia University is so glad to be hear in gorgeous Happy Valley, though we must admit that Beaver Stadium is a bit more underwhelming than we had first imagined. However, we'd like to thank all Nittany Lion faithful for their wonderful hospitality by playing our rendition of your fight song, "The Nittany Lion."

The booing was music to my ears!

As for Philmont, okay, didn't realize any of that wasn't archival.

wsmorrison

Re:Philmont Country Club
« Reply #81 on: September 16, 2005, 10:38:02 AM »
Mike,

No problem you lazy, good for nothing, knuckleheaded Quaker  ;D

I'll fax you a routing.  What's your number?

wsmorrison

Re:Philmont Country Club
« Reply #82 on: September 16, 2005, 10:42:53 AM »
Kyle,

Homecoming opponents vary every year.  It is versus Princeton this year.  The last game of the season is almost always against Cornell.



By the way, Kyle.  I love Penn State Football but wish they'd get their act together and can that overpaid (he does raise boatloads of cash though) old fart and get some new talent to run things.  Make him director emeritus or something.

Best thing about PSU football is they do a great job of graduating the players and they aren't hotdogs.  They score touchdowns (well not many over the last decade or so) and hand the ball to the ref.  How refreshing.  No names and those simple uniforms.  Great stuff!  Now dump the relic and don't forget to search the archives for Flynn at PSU  ;)
« Last Edit: September 16, 2005, 10:45:45 AM by Wayne Morrison »

mike_malone

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Philmont Country Club
« Reply #83 on: September 16, 2005, 10:48:28 AM »
 Wayne,
     BTW what's with  the "Fighting Quakers" That is offensive!. Besides Ben Franklin -the founder of Penn--wasn't  a Quaker anyway. Not to mention "Quaker" is rather perjorative also. We prefer "Friends". Whew! glad to get that off my chest.
AKA Mayday

Kyle Harris

Re:Philmont Country Club
« Reply #84 on: September 16, 2005, 12:29:32 PM »
The relic is doing just fine. His idiot son at QB coach needs to go. He's still a huge recruiting draw, as evidenced by this current freshman class... Derrick Williams and Justin King, etc. Note that they are starting too... who said the times have passed him by? BTW, what do you think he makes?  :P

I looked in the main library yesterday and found nothing. The Ag Library is open on Monday so that's when I'll run in there. Also going to ask a few of my old turf professors if they can lead me anywhere.

T_MacWood

Re:Philmont Country Club
« Reply #85 on: September 16, 2005, 12:35:07 PM »
There were 18 holes in play by at least 1910. I suspect the dates are correct regarding when the first and second nine were built (1907 & 08).

Reid left in 1910 and was replaced by James Douglas of Chevy Chase. (per American Golfer).

Willie Park listed Philmont as his design in 1923.

Kyle Harris

Re:Philmont Country Club
« Reply #86 on: September 16, 2005, 12:37:24 PM »
Could Willie Park have redone the South Course in 1923 to the point where it would be considered by him to be original?

T_MacWood

Re:Philmont Country Club
« Reply #87 on: September 16, 2005, 12:52:42 PM »
Extemely unlikely. As I said before, while the North was being constructed (12/1922), Park's business partner--Carter's dba Peterson, Sinclair and Lewis--was advertising their involvement with the Philmont project. Park listed Philmont starting in 1923 and up until he checked out the following year.

If Park was unable to oversee the work because of illness, getting someone local and someone familar with Park would make sense.

Kyle Harris

Re:Philmont Country Club
« Reply #88 on: September 16, 2005, 12:56:19 PM »
Tom Mac,

Good deal, looks like Park did some iteration of the North Course, now for the changes since!

wsmorrison

Re:Philmont Country Club
« Reply #89 on: September 16, 2005, 01:08:17 PM »
Tom Mac,

Have you seen an old aerial of Philmont?  If so, does anything come to mind?  There seem to be three different styles there as evidenced in the 1938 aerial, one very distinct from the other two that look like other early Philadelphia area courses that Craig has shown me on his "Phila Unknown" disc.

T_MacWood

Re:Philmont Country Club
« Reply #90 on: September 16, 2005, 07:12:57 PM »
Wayne
I have not. I've seen an old photo taken from low altitude, but you could only make out a few holes from the South course. Those holes had a kind of 1910 vintage look--a string of bunkers crossing one of the fairways diagonally, interesting mounds.

There was an article in American Goler (8/1909) on Philmont. The article said Reid had been in charge of the course since its inception (he came to Philmont from ACCC). In 1909 they were in the process of adding bunkers, evidently the course was built without bunkers, the theory being  the delay and study would allow better placement. The course was listed at 6302 yards. There was a nice photo of an important foursome: Reid, Ellis Gimble, Walter Travis and member Benjamin Wolf.
« Last Edit: September 16, 2005, 07:13:45 PM by Tom MacWood »

T_MacWood

Re:Philmont Country Club
« Reply #91 on: September 17, 2005, 10:34:15 AM »
According to the 'Architects of Golf' William Gordon was a salesman for the Peterson Seed Company and in 1920 joined Carter's Test Seed Co. as superintendent of its golf course construction division. (Actually Peterson and Carters were one and the same...Peterson represented Carters in the eastern US, eventually merging with another firm JM Throburn, but still representing Carter's)

Carter's Test Seed built Philmont, and they built most (if not all) of Willie Park's courses in the US. In fact Willie's US address is the same as Carter's.
« Last Edit: September 17, 2005, 10:52:06 AM by Tom MacWood »

Bill Shotzbarger

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Philmont Country Club
« Reply #92 on: September 21, 2005, 06:47:43 PM »
There's actually a lot of open land around Philmont. Across Buck Road from 5N green and 6N tee is a rolling farm property, and adjacent to 5S and 6S is another undeveloped piece of land. Note that this is on opposite sides of the property.

Kyle Harris

Re:Philmont Country Club
« Reply #93 on: September 21, 2005, 07:18:48 PM »
Bill,

Welcome to the board, finally!

Steve_ Shaffer

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Philmont Country Club
« Reply #94 on: September 27, 2005, 09:50:01 PM »
Bump

I played Philmont North today for the first time this year. If this course is not a Flynn, then something is wrong somewhere.

Wayne

Any news from Andy Karff? I spoke with the head pro and he said Andy is the one with information.


Steve
"Some of us worship in churches, some in synagogues, some on golf courses ... "  Adlai Stevenson
Hyman Roth to Michael Corleone: "We're bigger than US Steel."
Ben Hogan “The most important shot in golf is the next one”

mike_malone

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Philmont Country Club
« Reply #95 on: October 01, 2005, 09:30:48 PM »
I played here Friday. I especially loved the back. One hole after the other was enjoyable.

   As for the holes by the clubhouse, my architectural skills are not good enough to determine the designer.

     But , I did think the number of small pullups at the edges of several of the greens seemed quite different than what I see at Rolling Green,Lehigh, Huntingdon Valley and Philly Country or observed on my  walk of Shinnecock.This building up was noticable to me .Where one is likely to see a gradual runoff effect in the greens at RG or Shinny, here the sides,particularly the backsides, were pulled up. I mentioned this to Wayne. It just makes me wonder.I realize that there are pullups at the back of several greens at RG , but they look very different then the ones at Philmont.Could this be part of of his maturation? Or did he rework some of these holes.

   


     On this round , my second here, I liked the #10 and #18 holes better. The side by side holes (#10 downhill-#18 uphill) also had sideslope to add to the interest off the tee.The greens are very different. #10 has a forced carry to a right to left slanting green and #18 is open in front.
    But, I still don't like #9. It is just too awkward.

  As always there was a solid set of par threes.

   Of course, I felt there were several holes that have lost strategic approaches because of trees. Particularly annoying was #6. This is a downhill, blind teeshot. The second shot is only a wedge, but anything SLIGHTLY left of the fairway ends up with one of those annoying punchouts.(BTW I don't say this because of my drive. It left me in perfect position.) But, without those trees on the left one is faced with a pond to carry to a green where you want to be in the front half and there is a wonderful bunker on the left. This bunker is totally blocked by those trees.
    We encountered someone familiar with the history of the hole who said there was a double fairway here in the past  . There was fairway left of the tree(s). This would be fabulous to the recover. The distinctiveness of the hole would be outstanding and the play from the left side to that green would be challenging and fun.


    I wonder if Wayne and Tom see Philmont as one of Flynn's championship courses. I felt the greens were on the small side and most of the bunkers by the greens were flanking, not requiring a carry to many pin placements.The bunkers also seemed not as deep. But, they have been maintained in that magnificent Flynn flashing look. So, it seemed to be slightly less ambitious than some other Philly Flynn's.

    All in all it was just another pleasure we here in Philadelphia get---great Flynn!



     It certainly seems to be worth further investigation as to the Flynn  work here. Because we know other holes on the property were not done by him and some of the holes attributed to him are at least "headscratchers",it leads to speculation when the plans are not available.
« Last Edit: October 01, 2005, 09:41:52 PM by mayday_malone »
AKA Mayday

Steve_ Shaffer

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Philmont Country Club
« Reply #96 on: October 01, 2005, 10:23:04 PM »
Mike

I think 18 at North is generally regarded as one of the weakest finishing holes in the area.

Steve
"Some of us worship in churches, some in synagogues, some on golf courses ... "  Adlai Stevenson
Hyman Roth to Michael Corleone: "We're bigger than US Steel."
Ben Hogan “The most important shot in golf is the next one”

Bill Shotzbarger

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Philmont Country Club
« Reply #97 on: October 02, 2005, 12:49:47 AM »

   Of course, I felt there were several holes that have lost strategic approaches because of trees. Particularly annoying was #6. This is a downhill, blind teeshot. The second shot is only a wedge, but anything SLIGHTLY left of the fairway ends up with one of those annoying punchouts.(BTW I don't say this because of my drive. It left me in perfect position.) But, without those trees on the left one is faced with a pond to carry to a green where you want to be in the front half and there is a wonderful bunker on the left. This bunker is totally blocked by those trees.
    We encountered someone familiar with the history of the hole who said there was a double fairway here in the past  . There was fairway left of the tree(s). This would be fabulous to the recover. The distinctiveness of the hole would be outstanding and the play from the left side to that green would be challenging and fun.

I caddy at Philmont. If your ball is well enough left, e.g. left rough of #5 near the bunker, you actually can get to the green. I never heard of the double fairway before now. I say that not to argue, because there are a lot of things about the course I don't know. I never knew anyone other than Flynn touched the north before this thread.

Steve_ Shaffer

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Philmont Country Club
« Reply #98 on: October 02, 2005, 08:18:58 PM »
I understand that North will be stretched another 3-400yards making it a par 70 of almost 7000 yards. I don't know   any details yet.
"Some of us worship in churches, some in synagogues, some on golf courses ... "  Adlai Stevenson
Hyman Roth to Michael Corleone: "We're bigger than US Steel."
Ben Hogan “The most important shot in golf is the next one”

wsmorrison

Re:Philmont Country Club
« Reply #99 on: October 02, 2005, 08:26:52 PM »
Interesting, Steve.  I haven't heard anything about this.  The grapevine has been especially quiet.  I wonder who is involved?  I'll give Andy Karff a call tomorrow.  I'll post any findings.
Regards,
Wayne

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