[Kyle Harris]

Wayne,

There were a few inconsistencies with the article I noticed. Mainly that the North Course hadn't been touched. Also, why didn't it mention the Gordon changes in the 50s?

I mainly posted it because of the John Reid attribution, for more cannon (or could it be canon  ) fodder.

[TEPaul]

John Reid of New York was the sort of bigtime guy who started the "Apple Tree" gang and is sometimes given credit for the first club in America (St Andrews on the Hudson). His son Archie Reid was a helluva player.

The John Reid wer're talking about here was one of those "jack of all trades in golf" immigrant Scotsmen. Obviously John Reid's bag was not job security!  

Wayne:

That early drawing of ACCC shows a lot of rudimentary looking cop bunkers and geometric features on it. That was John Reid, right?

[wsmorrison]

That's exactly right, Tom.  Very geometric stuff.  Was the John Reid at GMGC spelled Reed or Reid?  I've got the history book downstairs but I'm lazy today.  He sure did get around.  Maybe he couldn't count past nine because I haven't learned of an 18-golf course by him yet.

Roger Gimbel, TV producer in LA and descendent of founder Ellis Gimbel, got my message and is having his sisters see if they can find any information on the history of Philmont.  They live in the area and he thinks they are still members.

[mike_malone]

 Are there 4 par threes in that one area ? One of the  par three fairways looks quite "french" for Flynn.

    This seems to be the tie-in area with the right of those threes different than the "clearly" Flynn on the left.

[wsmorrison]

There are four par 3 holes in that area.  I don't know what you mean by "French" maybe BillV does, but I will hazzard a guess and assume you mean the "S" shaped fairway.  If so, that is a feature Flynn used a lot on par 3 holes, especially on flat ground.  As I recall that area is fairly flat with a slight dip down to the stream and then back up.  I'm not certain what is Flynn at Philmont but the "S" curve is a wonderful feature found at the 8th at Indian Creek, Boca Raton South and elsewhere.  I think Ross tended to use the curve on par 4 holes but Flynn on par 3s.  

[mike_malone]

 Wayne,
    Thanks.
      Do see other evidence of Flynn bunching up par threes like this? I'm curious because of the speculation that has been on this thread about a possible different origin to the right side of the course.

   I must confess to also hoping that # 9 was done by someone else.

[TEPaul]

Wayne:

It was Reid. I'm assuming it's the same guy who was all over this area for so long. If there was someone else around here named John Reed I'm not aware of him or who he was.

With people and even architects like John Reid I think the thing this website needs to understand and appreciate better is what architects like Ron Prichard keep saying that guys like John Reid were basically "jack of all trades" journeymen Scotsmen who were generally minimally educated and over here early to get on the early train of the explosion of interest in golf in America just after the turn of the century and into the teens and twenties.

Most of the early immigrant Scots like a Reid were not exactly the same thing as a Harry Colt or an Alister MacKenzie, both educated and highly creative men in early golf architecture.

[Mike_Cirba]

   I must confess to also hoping that # 9 was done by someone else.

Yes, and if Billy Flynn didn't design 1, 2, 10, and 18 that'll be just fine with me, as well.  

[Mike_Cirba]

Given that both of the original nines were built in 1907 and 1908, and that John Reid was employed by the club through 1911, it seems likely that the first 18 holes were designed and built by him, would everyone agree?

Frankly, I believe that most of the South course is pretty rudimentary, even in its present form.  

My guess is that the rest of what we'll find will be divvying up who did what on the property between Park and Flynn in the 20s.

[T_MacWood]

John Reed was a misprint in 'American Golfer'...it was John Reid--pro/greenkeeper CC of AC, Gulph Mills and Philmont. No relationship to John Reid of St. Andrews or John Reid, Jr of Yale and Pittsburgh. He was also involved in designing the early forms of Berkshire and Scranton.

I would agree John Reid was no doubt responsible for the first 18 at Philmont.

[Mike_Cirba]

John Reed was a misprint in 'American Golfer'...it was John Reid--pro/greenkeeper CC of AC, Gulph Mills and Philmont. No relationship to John Reid of St. Andrews or John Reid, Jr of Yale and Pittsburgh. He was also involved in designing the early forms of Berkshire and Scranton.

I would agree John Reid was no doubt responsible for the first 18 at Philmont.

Tom,

That's right...I knew about Berkshire, as well.  Then Park came in and did the (A)9, (R)9 deal.

What do you know about Reid at CC of Scranton?  I found it interesting that he was employed near Philly yet did the first nine at Fox Hill (not too far from Scranton) several hours train ride north.  

[wsmorrison]

"I would agree John Reid was no doubt responsible for the first 18 at Philmont."

I think we should guard against making these sort of statements.  It is likely true but not undoubtedly so.

As for the remaining 18 holes, I think we need to look at early aerials to make a determination.  What's out there after 80 years time is too hard to discern.  Maybe Craig Disher will post or allow me to post a 1930s aerial photograph.  Fairway contours are different as are the bunkers.  Not dramatically so but enough.  

I'm leaning towards Park doing some of the work on the North and Flynn doing some.  But it remains to be seen.  Do you think the routing as is today supports having two separate nines, one by Park and one by Flynn?  I'm not so sure.

[Mike_Cirba]

Wayne,

I certainly think the holes on the North course do seem to break out into two nines.  I'm betting the holes closest to the clubhouse are Park and the holes further out are Flynn's.

I'm also betting that the holes in the "transition zone" as Mike referred to it (where there are 4 par threes together) were something Flynn did using all or parts of Park holes.  

Again...PURE speculation on my part, not to be misconstrued as fact.  

Can't wait to see an early aerial.

[mike_malone]

 Mike

  Yes !

     When there seems to be some doubt it only makes sense to speculate. It gives the analyst something to focus their work. I agree that those par threes seem to be the key.  Now the rigorous analyst like Wayne may blow your hypothesis out of the water. But, at least it is reasonable.

[mike_malone]

 More speculation--


   Doesn't the tree density seem less on the left portion?



  Although it also looks sparse on the South on the other side of the clubhouse.

   

[wsmorrison]

Mike,

The area on the west which is open relative to the other sections of Philmont was always less treed as can be seen in earlier photographs.  I'll call Craig and see if he'll let me post a low res photo.  

It would appear to me looking at earlier aerials that the club at some point acquired a tract of land to the west that was a farm and had open ground.  Could the holes that Mike C doesn't like be part of the original property and the club had 27 holes for a time?  Possible.  Maybe the club expanded in the boom years of the early 1920s to 36 holes and Flynn added the holes to the West.  I still don't see how the two nines were discreet from one another.  Please explain how the first nine of the north course would have progressed.

We probably need to look at land transfer records to get a handle on things.

[T_MacWood]

Mike
The first course at Scranton was built evidently without any professional advise...when Vardon toured the US he called the second nine at Scranton 'nine nasty pitches'. They abandoned it shortly afterward. The other nine must not have been much better, they tried reversing it, adding bunkers, removing bunkers, etc.

They hired Reid (who according to the article had laid out a number of courses in Philadelphia) in 1911 to design a new 18. The course was 6300 yards.

Is there any evidence the North course was built in phases? Didn't the course host a tournament soon after it opened?

I would think there would have been an article in one of the Philadlephia newspapers the day of or the day after the grand opening.

[wsmorrison]

Yes, Tom.  There was an opening day tournament.  Afterwards the great J. Wood Platt wrote the December 11, 1924 letter to Ellis Gimbel congratulating him on the terrific new Park course, how much he enjoyed playing the new course and for his invitation.  Nothing in the newspapers according to Bob Labbance.  That includes the Inquirer and Public Record, which had a terrific sports page and was devoted to golf.

Might it have received less press because of the Jewish membership?  Were these clubs ignored in the press during that time?

[Steve_ Shaffer]

Wayne

The publisher/owner of the defunct Philadelphia Record was J. David Stern and probably Jewish. As a historical note, Stern's son was the creator of Francis,The Talking Mule.

Is there any mention of Philmont's 1924 tournament in the local Jewish newspapers of the time?

I am still amazed that the club's archives/records are bare.

Steve

[wsmorrison]

Tom and I had two independent conversations with Andy Karff of Philmont.  He said that Bob Labbance found a box containing early minutes and though architects are not mentioned it will help formulate the timeline.

An interesting wrinkle is that Wilson (and likely Flynn) remodeled the 10th and 11th holes on the South Course as described in an article in the Phila Public Ledger.  We'll get a copy of that sometime in October and that should be interesting.

Here's what is on the table as of now:

1908:  9 holes open for play by Reid, the head professional

1916:  18 holes in play, I don't know who is credited with this.  I'm not sure if Reid was around then, I think he left as professional in 1911.  Tom MacWood seemed to know, I hope he will present the evidence.

In 1918 the Jackson Farm was purchased giving the club land to build the new 18 holes.  Some of the holes (1,2,9, 10 and 18) were in old forest, the remainder were built in the open fields of Jackson Farm.

There is a photo, I believe on the 9th tee of Henry Strouse (board member), Alex Davis (superintendent) and William Gordon.  Gordon did work for Willie Park, Jr. for a time but I think as of 1922 he was with Flynn.  It may be that Gordon was the project supervisor for Flynn's designs and doing the work under Toomey and Flynn, Contracting Engineers.

What did Park do, if anything?  What can we say with certainty that Flynn did?  At this point I don't believe we have enough information except to make educated guesses.  

When Bob Labbance returns to Philadelphia in October, I bet we'll know a lot more.

Interestingly, Andy Karff, who was away at GAP meetings got back and he had 19 different emails and voicemails from members and friends that mentioned the Philmont thread on GCA.  

[Kyle Harris]

I would speculate that 10 and 11 at the time of Flynn wasn't 10 and 11 of today.

[mike_malone]

 Oh no !  Flynn may have designed that banana !  

[Kyle Harris]

Mayday,

Remodeled...

[mike_malone]

  Can someone post a scorecard for this course or a routing?

[Mike_Cirba]

God, I love this stuff..

Golf Architectural Archeology - Level 501

I'm really curious which holes are 10 & 11 on the South, as well.  I believe the present two holes are among the best on the course, and utilize the uphill grade quite imaginatively.

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