[wsmorrison]

I hear ya, Mike C.  I noticed you were careful to present your hypothesis as that.  Do you want to go over there sometime and take a good look around?  

How about a trip to the Hagley?  I know a few were interested a couple of weeks ago.  They're open the second Saturday of each month.

Kyle,

I have learned to be very careful.  Sometimes I need reminders like Bob Labbance gave me not to take anything for granted.  When writing a book, the standard of proof has to be very high.  If not, then as Mike C did present the material on hand and make educated guesses but clearly stated as that.  And I completely agree with you that the kind of brainstorming you refer to is key to looking at the big picture and then focusing on specifics.

[mike_malone]

 It looks like some "mini" bunker maker was let loose on some the holes.

[Kyle Harris]

Wayne,

Sorry if I sounded defensive. I went back and reread my own language and get what you are saying. It's been a morning of Visual Basic programming for me, so you're lucky you didn't get:

PhilmontCC=int;
Flynn=float;
Park=float;
Park+Flynn==PhilmontCC;

I typically assume all to be conjecture but I must mind my audience. Plus, we all know the story about the Ewe and the donkey who made assumptions.

Has anybody contacted Montgomery County for possible deeds and/or permits? Anybody know what contractors built the courses?

[Mike_Cirba]

Guys,

I think we need to plan a trip to the Hagley.  I'm there..let's just pick a date and agree.

It'll be fun!

[wsmorrison]

If it has to be a Saturday, Mike.  Let's go October 8th, the next Saturday it is open.  I'd prefer to arrange a weekday, however.  I think Kyle wanted to go and maybe Steve.  I'm in.

[Kyle Harris]

Are they only open one Saturday a month?

[Mike_Cirba]

October 8th it is.  I'll mark my calendar.

We'll be like kids in a candy store, I'm sure.  

[T_MacWood]

In December 1922 a Carter's advertisement listed a number of projects recently completed or currently under construction -- Philmont was under construction. Carter's was involved in many of Willie Park's designs...if not all of them.

Willie became ill in 1923 and had been taken away to Scotland by the end of '23 or very early '24. His brother Mungo Park completed one or two of his projects in New England. If Park was unable to finish Philmont I would think the club would turn to someone local to oversee the work.

[wsmorrison]

Interesting suggestion, Tom.  Maybe Flynn finished the job.  I don't think the North course opened until late 1924.  Does the Carter's advertisement mention the name of the specific course at Philmont?

[T_MacWood]

Wayne
No mention of the name of the course in the ad.

I think it is unlikely Willie had anything to do with the creation of the old course in 1908. Did Flynn ever cross paths with Park?

[Mike_Cirba]

I'm thinking that there was only one course at Philmont at that time.  The lack of mention of a specific course would seem to be some additional minor evidence of that.  

[wsmorrison]

I don't think Park had anything to do with the creation of the first course at Philmont as he wasn't in the US at the time, but it is possible the work he was doing was a redesign of the South course but I've never heard that this was the case.  Maybe it was the start of the North course and Flynn finished it.  Somehow Flynn's name became associated with the course though I've not found a connection as yet.  Linc Roden III grew up being told that the South was Ross.  I've never seen evidence of this either.

[Mike_Cirba]

I have my Ross timeline book at home but perhaps someone else could answer quickly whether Ross had done any work outside of his earliest Massachusetts courses and some things in Pinehurst by 1907-08?

[mike_malone]

I saw a member of Philmont at lunch today; he said they looked at "original" designs when making some changes in the not too distant past.

[Kyle Harris]

A caddie friend/lurker on here directed me to this article in PGM:

http://www.philgolfmag.com/1004/1004_philmont.html

It still attributes Park and Flynn to the South and North respectively, but it gives a name to the originator of the first nine: John Reid.

[wsmorrison]

Kyle,

Rick Woelfel's research is normally far better than woeful.  In this case, I don't believe the case he makes is based upon any documentary evidence at all because, as you know, there isn't any...yet.  

John Reid is a likely candidate for early work in and around Philadelphia.  The fact is Park was not in the US until 1916 after is 1895-1896 trip.  I'll have to ask Bob Labbance how he knows this but I trust his research skills...he's one of the best at finding information.  Given this, he could not have revised Reid's nine holes and added nine at the time the South course was expanded to 18 holes.  I don't know where Rick got his information but it seems to be based on oral tradition rather than fact.

Mike, that Philmont member you had lunch with must have it wrong because Andy Karff, Bob Labbance and others that have been looking for such material for ages don't have anything.  Whatever changes were done in the not too distant past were likely based upon aerial photographs and not original plans or designs.  If they were, I think we'd know of their existence.

[T_MacWood]

John Reed was the pro/greenkeeper at Philmont up until 1911.

[mike_malone]

 Wayne,
 As I left he was calling Karff, so I guess he found out that it was photos not plans.

[wsmorrison]

Tom,

That is John Reid.  He laid out the first 9-hole course for Huntingdon Valley in Rydal, PA in 1897.  Later on as you stated previoulsy he was lured from HVCC to design the first 9 holes at Atlantic City CC (CC of Atlantic City then) opening them on June 18, 1898.  Reid designed the first 9 holes at Riverton at just 2360 yards in March 1900.  Later in 1900 he laid out another short 9-hole course this time for Lancaster CC.  There were chocolate drops and geometric features much like ACCC.  I'm not sure what he did in between this and the beginnings of Philmont.  

[Mike_Cirba]

Tom,

That is John Reid.  He laid out the first 9-hole course for Huntingdon Valley in Rydal, PA in 1897.  Later on as you stated previoulsy he was lured from HVCC to design the first 9 holes at Atlantic City CC (CC of Atlantic City then) opening them on June 18, 1898.  Reid designed the first 9 holes at Riverton at just 2360 yards in March 1900.  Later in 1900 he laid out another short 9-hole course this time for Lancaster CC.  There were chocolate drops and geometric features much like ACCC.  I'm not sure what he did in between this and the beginnings of Philmont.  

Well, that makes sense.  If memory serves Reid also did the first nine holes for Fox Hill CC in NE Pennsylvania and possibly a few others.  

Interesting how that article claims nothing has changed on the North course in 80 years.  I'm hoping that the Hagley has some early year photos (pre 1924...am I hoping for too much?) as well as through the later twenties.

Wayne...are the nine holes Reid built for Lancaster on the same site as present?  

[T_MacWood]

Wayne
There is a John Reid of NY and John Reed the pro/greenkeeper at Philmont during its formative years. I suspect the John Reed associated with Philmont is your man.

[wsmorrison]

No, Mike.  The Reid nine was abandoned and the club moved to the present site in 1913. The club added new land in 1919 and Flynn remodeled the original nine and added nine.  There were changes made to the golf course over many years, probably the hardest evolution report to do of all the Flynn courses.  Flynn was the consulting architect from 1920 to his death in 1945.

[wsmorrison]

I don't think so, Tom.  I know that John Reed was a greenkeeper, I think he was the greenkeeper at Gulph Mills for a time afterwards but he left when Flynn regrassed the greens.  John Reid I believe was the architect and John Reed the superintendent.  Why do you think John Reed was also the designer?

[TEPaul]

John Reid!?

The man seemed to be everywhere around this area back then. ACC, HVGC, Philmont and even GMGC. Apparently John Reid got ticked off at GMGC when they brought Wilson and Flynn in to consult on some agronomy problem with the putting greens.

This from the Board Meeting Minutes of GMGC December 7, 1921:

"The question of the settlement with John Reid was brought up be T. Truxtun Hare, who outlined the details of the situation with Reid. Reid was employed by the Green Committee as a Professional and Greenkeeper and after having been discharged made certain claims based on the assumption that he was unfairly discharged. The question of a settlement was left with Mr Hare as counsel. It was the sense of the meeting that we should if possible avoid a suit being brought against us by John Reid."

[Mike_Cirba]

Yes, Reid was pretty ubiquitous back then, apparently.  I know he was involved with some other early area designs that I'm forgetting now, as well.

For some time when I saw the first course attributions with his name I thought he might be the same John Reid from St. Andrews, NY, the so called "Father of American Golf".

Apparently this wasn't the case.

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