[Ted Kramer]

Gentlemen,

Here is my question, and pls forgive me if it is too simple to be answered . . .

If a Super wanted generally faster and firmer conditions year round, including the middle of a tough Philly/South Jersey summer, and decided to simply let the grass grow a bit taller (to improve the health and hardiness of the plant) and water the course less . . .

Could success be expected?

Is the process of creating "fast and firm" conditions much more complex than this?

-Ted

[Norbert P]

 That is a terrific and important question.

Picture the scenerio :
Fast and Firm becomes marketable condition . . .
Golfers demand . . . "less plush! More roll!"
Greens committees respond. . . "We want Fast and Firm!"
Supers, shocked, research and reevaluate ag practices . . .
 . . . mixed results . . . jobs become tenuous.
GCA.com forum becomes an accredited class for landscaping degree.
America goes brown . . . is happy for two weeks until everything looks like west Texas . . . then ...
Supers rehired to turn on sprinklers.

  Seriously, it is not a simple answer due to countless variables of keeping viable grass thriving under extreme conditions. It is a question that my home course superintendant works on continuously, and since it is his constant goal to deliver F+F conditions, he is not so hit by the anxieties of it. It has become second nature.  

   It would be terrific if more courses would/could move into that direction. What is the first step? Perhaps a demanding public?

   There is a terrific book by Neal Kinsey called Hands-on Agronomy that really gets in-depth on causes and effects of soil structure/componentry/productivity, etc. It is technical, and a minor in chemistry would definitely help, but the gist gets through even my thick skull.
 

[rgkeller]

If "firm" were the consistent goal and "fast" left for the cooler months, golf courses would be in far better condition for play.

[Norbert P]

  Well said RG.  A new mantra is born.

[Craig Sweet]

Is your course mostly Poa? If its hot and dry, the Poa will not be happy. Cut back on nitrogen? Again, the Poa will not be happy...letting the grass grow taller? Well, that might help a little with stress from wear and tear....but....

So, its hot and dry...a drought...the super looks around and says "holy sh%t this stuff is dying all around me"...so he cranks the water to keep the Poa alive...goodbye firm and fast...but hey, at least you have grass to play on...

But yeah, maybe you have a fairly new course and little Poa...suddenly its hot...and humid...and not cooling off at night....one day the super looks and there's some pythium blight...18 hours later he's got 4 dead greens....opps...now its real firm and real fast....

I guess this is one way of saying you'd better take a hard look at where you are and where you want to go and then decide how you get there...if its firm and fast, and you're currently wet and slow...good luck....it will not happen over night...in my opinion a course that is always wet is like a drunk...you won't dry either one up over night...

[Ted Kramer]

Is your course mostly Poa? If its hot and dry, the Poa will not be happy. Cut back on nitrogen? Again, the Poa will not be happy...letting the grass grow taller? Well, that might help a little with stress from wear and tear....but....

So, its hot and dry...a drought...the super looks around and says "holy sh%t this stuff is dying all around me"...so he cranks the water to keep the Poa alive...goodbye firm and fast...but hey, at least you have grass to play on...

But yeah, maybe you have a fairly new course and little Poa...suddenly its hot...and humid...and not cooling off at night....one day the super looks and there's some pythium blight...18 hours later he's got 4 dead greens....opps...now its real firm and real fast....

I guess this is one way of saying you'd better take a hard look at where you are and where you want to go and then decide how you get there...if its firm and fast, and you're currently wet and slow...good luck....it will not happen over night...in my opinion a course that is always wet is like a drunk...you won't dry either one up over night...

Thanks for taking the time to answer Craig.
I wasn't really asking for the sake of my club.
As a matter of fact our Super,  Kevin Reis, has done an outstanding job with Pine Hill this year. The course was in excellent shape all summer long and the fall looks like it is going to be outstanding . . .

My question was meant to help me get an idea of excatly what kind of process is needed and how much work goes into transforming a golf course from a slow green wet mess into a faster and firmer track.

Lets just say that an entire club was in agreement that they were sick and tired of the over-watered and wanted to pursue fast and firm . . .
- How long should/could the tranformation take?
- How tough will the change be on the course, the grass, etc.
- Is this fast and firm setting something that only a specialist can produce?

-Ted

[Craig Sweet]

Ted, I understood your question and I was asking "is your grass poa" as a general question to all that were pondering your question.

The process begins with a look at what you have and where you want to go...If you have a lot of poa your process of getting to "firm and fast" will be different than if you don't....

Look at it this way...you have a tree growing in your backyard...you determine you want it to be about 20ft tall someday and no taller someday...right now it is 6ft tall...but then you learn its a maple tree and that over the course of 50 years will grow to be 75ft tall....now what???

Better yet, you have a 30ft tree growing in your backyard but you want a 25ft tall tree....how do you bring that 30ft tree down to 25ft without killing it, changing its structure in such away that it is ruined, making it very ugly for a couple of years???

Going from wet to dry is not so simple as turning off a switch and cutting the grass shorter.

[TEPaul]

Ted:

Before even beginning to answer your question one needs to completely understand what is meant by "firm" and what is meant by "fast" in this over-used phrase "firm and fast" as it pertains to putting greens. (firm and fast "through the green" is another set of circumstances altogether).

In a nutshell "firm" really only pertains to the "playability" of approach shots while "fast" really only pertains to the "playability" of putting and chipping.

Many people don't seem to understand this or don't think to make that distinction. They have to! "Firm and Fast" pertaining to putting greens are two words and two terms that are definitely not synonymous.

There is nothing wrong with having putting greens that are firm but not fast! Most people don't seem to understand that---eg they think if you have one you have to have the other. That's simply not true.

[mike_malone]

 If one assumes that bent grass (for the Philly area) is the best route to maintaining firm and fast conditions then should it be multiple types as Merion employed or one or two versions as most other clubs used? Does variety give you more security?

  I recall our discussions about regrassing a few years ago and the major concern was to eliminate the anthrachnose prone poa. I wondered at the time  " don't all grasses have their problems?".

   Now we have patch all and it is a killer.

[Tim Taylor]

How very true Tom. The courses I played in Hawaii last week had very firm greens. I didn't make a pitch mark of any significance over the course of five rounds. However the greens were not fast at all. I enjoyed playing it that way. It made me think about where to land my approaches and it made the contours of the green meaningful before you were actually putting.

TimT

Ted:

Before even beginning to answer your question one needs to completely understand what is meant by "firm" and what is meant by "fast" in this over-used phrase "firm and fast" as it pertains to putting greens. (firm and fast "through the green" is another set of circumstances altogether).

In a nutshell "firm" really only pertains to the "playability" of approach shots while "fast" really only pertains to the "playability" of putting and chipping.

Many people don't seem to understand this or don't think to make that distinction. They have to! "Firm and Fast" pertaining to putting greens are two words and two terms that are definitely not synonymous.

There is nothing wrong with having putting greens that are firm but not fast! Most people don't seem to understand that---eg they think if you have one you have to have the other. That's simply not true.

[TEPaul]

TedK;

Let me ask you something. When you started this thread and wrote that initial post about firm and fast conditions, the putting greens were all you were thinking about weren't you?  

[TEPaul]

Let me ask the rest of you guys something. When it comes to the flip side of "firm and fast"---eg firm and fast "through the green" what does really firm and fast "through the green" mean to you? Does it mean a bounce and roll-out of 20 yards? 30 yards? 50 yards?

To me really firm and fast "through the green" means a high initial bounce and roll-out of AT LEAST 50 yards, and hopefully more.

Did any of you happen to notice that post of Fishers Island's Donnie Beck about a month ago where he said his course was getting rollout "through the green" of up to 100 yards?

How cool is that? Do you realize how challenging and how much imagination and skill it takes to have a ball that rolls out along the ground "through the green" that much actually end up where you want it to?

Do you think that would inherently make any golfer pay a whole lot more attention to a golf course's architecture and it's strategies than if the ball just hit and stopped??

[Ted Kramer]

TedK;

Let me ask you something. When you started this thread and wrote that initial post about firm and fast conditions, the putting greens were all you were thinking about weren't you?  

Actually it was exactly the opposite.

Here is a copy of a portion of an email that I sent to another GCAer regarding my interest in the subject:

". . .the course is going to be in outstanding shape in a week or so . . .
Kevin just punched the greens and fairways and to my untrained eyes it looks like the grass is growing in very well.
The fairways are firming up nicely after the tough summer and greens look very healthy.

Just as an example of how the course is playing:
On Saturday I pulled my tee shot left on #3 and had about 190 to the green from the left rough without a clear look (blocked by some of the trees on the left). . .
I hit a lowish hooking 4 iron that bounded off the big hill/slope on the right side of the fairway about 20 or 30 yards from the green and watched the ball bounce, bound, and roll its way all the way to back left part of the green. It was a very exciting shot to play and only possible when the conditions are really right. . ."

Playing the shot described above got me very excited about the idea of a course that plays fast and firm through the greens.

-Ted

[TEPaul]

TedK:

I'm glad to hear that. You have a head start on about 90% of the people who run golf clubs in the good ole US of A in understanding all this!  

[Chris Munoz]

I would take a sand-pro with a spiker attachment and spike in one direction, followed by a one week intervals of topdressing, start of heavy then cut back and see what happens.  Observe how the leaf blade takes the abuse.  As Craig said before, cut back on N applications, spoon feed instead, at low rates...And water less...Less water means, no diseases

Muni

[gboring]

Changing maintenance philosophies to cut off the water will not necessarly give you the firm fast conditions that you are looking for.  If thatch build up is a problem aggressive cultivation (aerification, verticutting, topdressing) is the only way to remove the spongy organic material from the soil.  This process may take a couple of years.  Paul Latshaw Jr. of Muirfield Village has been working since he arrived three years ago to firm up the playing surfaces and has aerified fairways nearly 15 times in three years.

[TEPaul]

Greg:

One of the real points of all these threads on here about firm and fast, about HVGC and the changes they made years ago etc is supposed to show is that if anyone thinks the only thing that needs to be done on any course to achieve consistently firm and fast conditions (weather permitting) after all these decades of over irrigation is to simply shut off the artifical irrigation, then they are really naive and may be in for a rude awakening.

[James Bennett]

Paul Latshaw Jr. of Muirfield Village has been working since he arrived three years ago to firm up the playing surfaces and has aerified fairways nearly 15 times in three years.

I recall seeing Muirfield Village on the TV in either 2003 or 2004, and Jack Nicklaus was explaining the changes in the playability of the course since the tree removal program was undertaken.  He commented on the renewed impact of wind on shots, particlularly play to the smaller greens and shorter par 4's.  That change, coupled with the fairway turf renovation mentioned above seems to imply a major change occurred in about 2002 at this landmark course.

I can't recall how Jack's course has been set up for the last two Memorial events.  Have the fairways played firmer?  Has there been any reduction to the irrigation applied, or is the project principally a rejuvenation of the fairways through thatch removal?  Perhaps changes in playability will be an aspect of the Memorial to look forward to in 2006.  

PS I have had to correct typos in this post a couple of times.  I think my keyboard must be related to Rich Goodale.  Is it difficult to type accurately using the 'Claw' grip?

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