[Marc Haring]

One thing I did many years ago to help strengthen my case for firm and fast was to get the membership to fill out a questionnaire asking such questions as what do you think is the most important criteria of a golf green? I then gave options such as colour, correct speed, texture, smoothness of roll, minimum use of temporary greens, freedom from blemishes etc etc. I than asked them what they thought the best colour, speed and texture of a green should be.

Now when you are confronted with such harsh choices, any self respecting golfer with a few brain cells wired up correctly is going to put ‘colour’ at the bottom of the list and ‘smoothness of roll’ at the top. And do you know what, they did. In fact it was overwhelming. Also, they wanted a medium to pale green colour, medium to medium firm texture and medium to medium fast in speed.

Sure there were a few that wanted warp speed greens with the texture of blancmange but they were so much in the minority that I had a water tight case against them.

So my advice to Supers is to carefully draw up a questionnaire and let your membership fill it out and then hit them with what is the majority decision. But carefully word those questions so that they have to give you the answers you want.

[JESII]

So my advice to Supers is to carefully draw up a questionnaire and let your membership fill it out and then hit them with what is the majority decision. But carefully word those questions so that they have to give you the answers you want.

Sounds genius, really.

A similar type survey was done (reported on here by Tom Doak I believe) at Crystal Downs with regards to green speeds alone.

Does it make sense to include possible side effects for each answer? In other words, if someone thinks they want real lush green turf is there a way to inform them of possible negative long term effects and still keep the survey manageable?

Do you need to repeat the survey every few years to keep the issues near the front of the memberships mind?

[Marc Haring]

Jes, I haven't had to.

I must confess I really don't have to much of a problem with our membership, all 1500 of them. (Well nearly all 1500.)

Here's the original questionnaire:

Here at Cumberwell, we would like to find out your views on golf greens in general. Using this information we may be able to modify our greens maintenance programme to suit you the customer. So please help us by taking the time to fill in the following questionnaire and posting it in the suggestion box in reception. Please fill them out individually rather than as a group, as we want uninfluenced views only.


Name:         ……………………………
Handicap:      ……

Listed below are eight qualities that a golf green should possess to some degree. If a golf green had all eight on a daily basis, it would be the perfect green but as such a green does not exist, certain compromises have to be made. To help us decide which ones are of most importance to you, we would like you to score them according to priority. So if you believe that greens texture is the most important factor in the quality of a golf green, then please put an 8 in the space next to it. If you feel that freedom from pitch and spike marks is the next most important, then place a 7 in the space next to it. Keep going until you get to the quality you feel is least critical in the deciding what constitutes the perfect golf green and score it 1.  

                              Score
1.   Freedom of disease, weeds, pitch and spike marks and other unsightly
blemishes.
(We are not talking green totally destroyed here, it’s more a visual thing)   …………………….

2. Correct speed of ball roll, or how fast a green is.
(I will ask what speed you prefer later)               …………………….

3. Minimal amount of disruptive maintenance.
(Hollow coring, topdressing, scarifying etc)               …………………….

4. Minimal use of temporary greens.
(If you don’t mind temps mark it low, if you refuse to play
on any of them, then mark this high.)               …………………….

5. Quality of ball roll i.e. how smooth or true the greens are.         …………………….
   
6. Greens texture (how soft or firm a green is)
I will ask what texture you prefer later.               ……………………

7. Colour of greens. (i.e. dark green, light green etc.)
I will ask what colour you prefer later.               ……………………

8. Consistency of quality
(i.e. are all of the greens the same.)                  ……………………


Now please indicate your preference of greens colour, texture and speed by circling the description you like the most in a golf green. For example if you like a golf green to be fast then circle fast in the appropriate section.

Greens speed:   Slow      Medium slow      Medium      Medium fast       Fast.

Greens texture:   Soft      Medium soft      Medium      Medium firm   Firm.

Greens colour:   Brown/yellow    Light green      Medium green   Dark green   Very  
green            dark green.



Thank you for taking the time to fill in this questionnaire.

Marc Haring. Course Manager.


And here is a rough idea of what one of the excell charts looked like:

[mike_malone]

 Marc,
    Great survey--- Are 2-5 -8 the winners. I wonder how firm-fast- and brown did?

[Marc Haring]

Mike

Brown didn’t do too good. In fact it only got the one vote and I reckon he was senile.

Firm and fast got a lot of votes, I’ll have to dig out the exact numbers.

2, 5 and 8 were the winners but the order was 5, 8, 2. You might just be able to make it out in the chart.

[mike_malone]

  Marc,
       Yes, I see that order. I guess "brown" would lose,but hopefully light green did well.

[Jim_Kennedy]

Marc/Mayday,
Whether or not brown did well I do think it's a positive that coloration is the least important issue. It would seem to suggest that given good roll, good speed and good consistency players will live with just about any color you give them.    

[TEPaul]

Pat, JamesK and JerryK:

When I began proposing firmer and faster playability at my course I proposed it simply from a "playbility" standpoint--nothing more. I just said who doesn't want the ground game option restored? Have you ever seen any member of a golf club say they absolutely DO NOT want a ground game option? I never have.

That's the easy part. The hard part is explaining to them the benefit of the degree of it. I remember trying to get this across to our super a few years ago. He said we had a ground game option and I said no we didn't. I don't know what he had in mind---maybe the ball moving about ten feet or something but finally he asked me exactly what I meant by it. I said when the ball bounced five feet in the air on a tee shot and ran for fifty yards or so. I remember his expression well, and he just said---"On My!".

We're nowhere near there yet but we've been working on it for a couple of years now. The important thing to understand is you can't have it all the time for a whole variety of reasons. The trick is to have it bigtime when you can have it.

[gboring]

First of all I would like to say it is nice to join all of you.  I have been observing for some time but am now just getting into the mix.  My experience of being a superintendent is that the difference from one club to the next is remarkable.  Last year I was at a club in Northern New Jersey and we could not get the greens hard or fast enough for the membership.  The term brown and down was their motto.  I received my first head superintendents position in January in Northeast PA and they practically call a greens committee meeting at every brown spot on the course.  They perfer green speeds not to exceed 11 (even for member-guests) and be very receptive to approach shots.  The contrast of maintenance philosophy is quite remarkable.  

Greg Boring

[TEPaul]

GregB:

Welcome to GOLFCLUBATLAS. I hope you will be able to stay on this site and post at will about anything that occurs to you regarding maintenance practices and how they influence playability in small and large ways. We have a pretty impressive group of supers on here now but unfortunately and for obvious reasons most of them feel they need to be sort of cautious about the tihngs they say.

Firm and fast conditions vs soft and receptive conditions in a "playability" context has been talked about and discussed from every conceivable angle on here for years and it seems to be completely evident at this point that firm and fast conditions in a general sense is more interesting, more challenging and simply more fun for every level of player than soft and receptive conditions both "through the green" and on greens.

There are undeniably some off-setting factors in this semi-generalization but as of to date I've only seen or heard of one golf club whose membership apparently was not happy with the playbility of firm and fast vs soft and receptive and I don't think the difference in color had much to do with it. For the rest I sense a reaction within general memberships at courses that have transitoned from soft and receptive to firm and fast of---"where has our golf course been all these years?" (during those times of over-irrigation when virtually no ground game existed).

Firm and fast in playability is making a comeback---not everywhere yet, for sure, but it's happening.

And I'm only talking about it right now from the persepective of "playability" and the membership. Next, in the future, we should be taking about it on here a lot more from the perspective of the maintenance department and how, in the end, it's the safest (for the health of the agronomy) and the most common-sensical way to go in the future.

In not too long a time HVGC's Scott Anderson is going to do an interview on here about the entire philosophy of firm and fast vs soft and receptive from a playability stand-point but particularly from and agronomic stand-point. He says he's so far along in his career now he's no longer concerned about offending someone or appearing to be critical of those who did and do things differently. I'm sure he can also see that others are beginning to follow some of the practices that he and HVGC started so long ago (I believe they may be the first club and course that dedicatedly transitioned from extremely soft and receptive to extremely firm and fast). Scott says the time has come for him to tell it all like it is!

And we also have the fascinating Donnie Beck of Fishers Island G.C. who maintains a truly unique golf course with no fairway irrigation system that transitions its own playablitly "through the green" perhaps on a seasonal basis however Mother Nature sees fit!  

Fishers Island is no super low budget muni either---it's one of the greatest architectural examples in America---lack of money for irrigation is not the issue there--if that club wanted it they'd have it. They've never had it, they probably never will because it appears they don't want it any different than it's always been.

[Patrick_Mucci]

TEPaul,

I think Greg Boring's post is indicative of the cultural differences that exist at individual clubs.

Each club has its own perspective on how a golf course should look and play.

Greg's recent experience shows how radically different, to the point of extreme, clubs can be.

Try convincing the members of his new club of how fast & firm, Yellow-brownish-green can enhance the golfing experience.   Can you imagine working at the committee and/or board level and trying to get them to see the light.

I think the process of moving toward fast & firm, YBG conditions is made far more difficult at every club when the membership watches PGA Tour golf every weekend.

Greg Boring,

Good luck in your new position.

[TEPaul]

"TEPaul,

I think Greg Boring's post is indicative of the cultural differences that exist at individual clubs."

Pat:

I agree with you. Despite those differences and as I told you tonight I think it's not only possible but even likely that almost any club can be convinced to do the right thing. I feel confident that I know how to talk to them to do the right thing and as I told you tonight you might be better at it than I am but first you need to understand that the way to do it is with respect and civility and not adverserialness.

But the problem with that for you is it's necessary for you to take the first step and admit that I'm right about memberships and you're wrong about them! As the old well-worn and true principle says, Pat, it's just not worth it in the end to fight one's expert teacher! You may be, and perhaps are, a great student but your "Master Teacher" will always be me. Liberation and freedom of understanding for you will not be in just accepting this intellectually but in admitting it on here. Only then can you proceed to those sun-lit uplands of true golf architectural clarity.

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