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Ed_Baker

Longest Original Ross Par 3 ??
« on: September 06, 2005, 05:45:22 PM »

Recently, over a beer or twelve, one of our GCA type members asked me if our 11th hole at 239 yards was the longest original par 3 designed by Ross. He was shocked when I said I didn't know, but I told him I would find out.

Given that the course opened for play in 1921 that was a pretty long poke in those days, Brae Burn, Winchester,Salem, Wannamoisett, all have their long Ross 3's, but none as long as 239.

Does anybody in the treehouse know of a longer un-altered Ross par 3 ??
Michael Fay are you out there? How about Kris at the Tufts archives?

Mike Hendren

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Longest Original Ross Par 3 ??
« Reply #1 on: September 06, 2005, 05:55:30 PM »
Ed,

I recall the 12th at Knoxville's Cherokee CC requiring a driver when I was in college.  I'm guessing it played slightly over 240 yards with railroad tracks and creek in play around the green.  

Paging John Stiles.

Mike
Two Corinthians walk into a bar ....

Dan Kelly

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Longest Original Ross Par 3 ??
« Reply #2 on: September 06, 2005, 05:56:57 PM »
I remember reading, somewhere, that Interlachen's 17th played at 270 yards during the 1930 U.S. Open (leg 3 of Jones's Slam).

But I don't know if that's a Ross hole.
"There's no money in doing less." -- Joe Hancock, 11/25/2010
"Rankings are silly and subjective..." -- Tom Doak, 3/12/2016

wsmorrison

Re:Longest Original Ross Par 3 ??
« Reply #3 on: September 06, 2005, 05:58:59 PM »
Ed,

Outside your 11th, which I had the pleasure of playing with you Dave Miller and Tom Paul, the longest original yardage Ross par 3 I have come across in my research was the 235 yard 9th hole at Indian Spring CC in Four Corners, Maryland.  It was redesigned by Flynn right before he died in 1945 and now is NLE.

Best regards,
Wayne
« Last Edit: September 06, 2005, 05:59:34 PM by Wayne Morrison »

Lawrence Largent

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Re:Longest Original Ross Par 3 ??
« Reply #4 on: September 06, 2005, 06:09:18 PM »
Cherokee's 12th I'm pretty sure in the 248 range and its a brute of a hole. Most layup but i'm pretty sure its an original.

Lawrence

Tom_Doak

  • Karma: +3/-1
Re:Longest Original Ross Par 3 ??
« Reply #5 on: September 06, 2005, 07:04:50 PM »
Ed:  I thought the par-3 at Brae Burn was slightly over 250 yards when they played the event on it in the early 1920's (can't remember if that was the Open or the Amateur).  Might be in my file of old clippings at the office, if I can remember to look tomorrow.

Geoffrey Childs

Re:Longest Original Ross Par 3 ??
« Reply #6 on: September 06, 2005, 07:47:29 PM »
Ed

The 12th hole at Metacomet in Rhode Island is 242 yards.  It follows a 228 yarder (#10) that is all carry. Very manly holes for a "quaint" little club on under 100 acres.

TEPaul

Re:Longest Original Ross Par 3 ??
« Reply #7 on: September 06, 2005, 09:54:48 PM »
Ed:

When I saw the 11th at CR I wouldn't have thought he ever did a longer one. But it's not the length of that hole that gets your attention---it's just a beautiful design on a apparently natural landform. Perhaps I'm wrong but it felt like the type of hole in firm and fast conditions you could hit the ball about 200 yards up to the left and still get there. Do you think that's true?

Andy Doyle

Re:Longest Original Ross Par 3 ??
« Reply #8 on: September 07, 2005, 09:41:00 AM »
East Lake's #18 is 235 yards (that's what is says on the scorecard, but I swear the Tour Championship yardage was in excess of 240).

I don't know if that hole is one of the original Tom Bendelow holes, or if Ross completely redesigned the course.  The club history indicates the original finishing holes were across the lake from the clubhouse, so I think the current #18 is Ross.

Although their website states:

"In 1994, Rees Jones restored Donald Ross's original golf course layout."

I don't know if he (Rees Jones) added tees to lengthen 18.

AD

wsmorrison

Re:Longest Original Ross Par 3 ??
« Reply #9 on: September 07, 2005, 09:45:02 AM »
"The 12th hole at Metacomet in Rhode Island is 242 yards.  It follows a 228 yarder (#10) that is all carry. Very manly holes for a "quaint" little club on under 100 acres."

Geoff,

What was the original Ross yardage for these two holes.  That's quite a duo of par 3s.  What is the 11th hole like?

John_Conley

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Re:Longest Original Ross Par 3 ??
« Reply #10 on: September 07, 2005, 10:12:27 AM »
I remember reading, somewhere, that Interlachen's 17th played at 270 yards during the 1930 U.S. Open (leg 3 of Jones's Slam).

But I don't know if that's a Ross hole.

Correct.  268 if memory serves, with the tee back by the water fountain as you come of 16th green.  I also don't know what qualifies as a Ross hole.

Ed_Baker

Re:Longest Original Ross Par 3 ??
« Reply #11 on: September 07, 2005, 10:48:04 AM »
Thank you for your responses Gentlemen,

Imagine a 268 par 3 from that era !! Wow!

Tommy Paul,

You are correct about the 11th, when the conditions are fast and firm all you want to do is fly it about 200 over the right corner of the fairway bunker and then take your chances on the bounce.

Francis Quimet was once asked what the most difficult second shot at Charles River was, he replied, "the chip on 11."

It's a great hole, but obviously not the longest par 3 Ross designed.

wsmorrison

Re:Longest Original Ross Par 3 ??
« Reply #12 on: September 07, 2005, 10:59:35 AM »
Robert Sommers, in his history of the US Open, recorded the yardage of the 17th as 262 yards.  In the last round, Jones pushed his tee shot over a bunker on the right, hit a tree and was never found.  It may have fallen into a dried up water hole covered by swamp grass but no one saw it.

Jones asked Prescott Bush, the referee, what he should do.  Bush said that the ball went into a parallel water hazard and he should drop a ball in the fairway opposite the point where the ball crossed the margin of the hazard.  With his penalty shot leaving him an easy chip, Jones recorded a five.

The status of the area where the ball might have been lost was not clarified and nobody saw the ball enter the area.  Many thought that the ball should have been declared lost and Jones should have hit another from the tee.  With the delay of the ruling, by the time the Mac Smith, in second place, got to the 18th tee there were a full six goups on the tee.  They stood aside and allowed Smith the chance at eagle-2 to tie Jones.  He made par and Jones won by two.  Sarazen felt the ruling tainted the victory.

ForkaB

Re:Longest Original Ross Par 3 ??
« Reply #13 on: September 07, 2005, 12:32:42 PM »
When Ross was a carpenter in his youth, he designed an heroic "par" 3 in Golspie on which one teed off from the top of Ben Braggie ~2500 feet down to a wee landing area on the tarmacadam of the A9, from which (with a favourable bounce) one could land on a green cut into Loch Fleet.

It was shortly after the local council put the kibbosh on this grand idea that he emigrated to the USA (and vowed to never have a drop shot par-3 in his repertoire)..........

michael j fay

Re:Longest Original Ross Par 3 ??
« Reply #14 on: September 07, 2005, 02:14:48 PM »
The longest I can remember are the 17th at Brae Burn which dresses out over 250 yards and the fourth at Worcester which is in the 248 range. The hole at Cherokee is upwards to 250 yards.

The seventeenth at Brae Burn is straight downhill. whereas the fourth at Worcester is from elevated tee to elevated green about on the same level. The long at Cherokee is pretty much at grade.

I cannot speak for the original tees on these holes but the seventeenth at Brae Burn back tee is a minor extention to the regular tee. The same is true at Worcester.

All three are wonderful challengiong holes but these days I prefer the Ross threes that are in the 130 range.

john_stiles

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Re:Longest Original Ross Par 3 ??
« Reply #15 on: September 07, 2005, 03:47:09 PM »
The 12th at Cherokee CC was listed as 243 yards in newspaper article of 1927.  Recent scorecard lists 242 yards.

The tee is elevated just a bit but you never notice that with OB and the creek lurking in the area of the green.

Tom_Doak

  • Karma: +3/-1
Re:Longest Original Ross Par 3 ??
« Reply #16 on: September 07, 2005, 03:49:43 PM »
Ed:

I checked my file, and indeed, the 17th at Brae Burn was listed at 255 yards for the US Amateur in 1928 ... although it is downhill.

Ed_Baker

Re:Longest Original Ross Par 3 ??
« Reply #17 on: September 07, 2005, 05:09:12 PM »
Thanks again for all the responses Gentlemen.

That last post by Tom Doak was a real eye opener for me, a personal thanks Tom, for taking the time to check your notes, it is much appreciated.

I've played Brae Burn a ton of times over the years, and always from the tips in the Met. League, and I swear I've knocked in on 8 at Brae Burn at a much higher percentage than I do on 11 at The River, I'm quite amazed at the yardage
Without consulting a scorecard, if asked, I would probably opine that 17 at Brae Burn was longer yardage wise than 8, but that 17 played shorter because it's so down hill it's like a long drop shot.
So there you are, as in life, perception becomes reality for golfers.

Thanks again,
Ed

James Bennett

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Re:Longest Original Ross Par 3 ??
« Reply #18 on: September 07, 2005, 08:04:22 PM »
Ed

Grosse Ile's 18th  is a 237er and a bit more from the back.  It is virtually all carry because the course is virtually never firm (seriously overwatered).  The yardage remains with me because it is the only proper ace I have had.  Of course it was with a driver about 15 years ago.

Ciao

Sean

Sean

Persimmon, strata wood or steelhead driver?  If it was persimmon, then it would have been one of the sweetest shots ever to have felt and experienced.
Bob; its impossible to explain some of the clutter that gets recalled from the attic between my ears. .  (SL Solow)

Geoffrey Childs

Re:Longest Original Ross Par 3 ??
« Reply #19 on: September 07, 2005, 10:30:09 PM »
"The 12th hole at Metacomet in Rhode Island is 242 yards.  It follows a 228 yarder (#10) that is all carry. Very manly holes for a "quaint" little club on under 100 acres."

Geoff,

What was the original Ross yardage for these two holes.  That's quite a duo of par 3s.  What is the 11th hole like?

Wayne - perhaps Brad Klein or Ron Prichard know if the original tee was at 242 yards. Sadly, Dick Cesana isn't with us to let us know  :'( . I don't recall any new looking tee stuck behind and the next tee up is the ladies tee at 135  :) .

The 11 hole is a great little (my birdie did NOT influence this  :o ) medium/short 378 yard par 4.  Then there are are wonderful group of parallel holes cumulating with the 14th (448 yards) that some consider the best hole in Rhode Island.

TEPaul

Re:Longest Original Ross Par 3 ??
« Reply #20 on: September 08, 2005, 08:33:09 AM »
From the perspective of Nebraska's young and super long John Hurley, a hole such as Philadelphia C.C's #1 has become a long par 3. The hole is a bit of a right to left open dogleg of sorts heavily bunkered much of the way to the green on the left and around the green.

Since Long John had such a disasterous first round in qualifying at Merion I told him at PCC he should just attack all the rest of the holes that weren't par 3s with a driver.

I forgot, however, that PCC's 310 yard first hole is not exactly a driver for him, matter of fact it's probably about 30-40 yards (or sometimes a lot more) too short for his driver. So, on that hole he took out a 3 wood and although I was standing well over to the left he hit a great 3 wood with a necessary draw. As the ball was in the air (for a long time ;) )he kept encouraging it to turn, turn, turn.

Yep, basically the ball was right at the front of the green! :)

What happens when Long John really catches his drive on a par 4? The 8th at PCC is the best example (and something that's bound to become legend at PCC). On that somewhat uphill par 4 of app 400 yards Long John really caught a drive and the ball ended up one step from the left greenside bunker that's essentially the front of the green!  ;)

Some on here will inevitably ask if examples like this will ever get the attention of the USGA/R&A? I can tell you Long John most definitely got the attention of the USGA Tech Center fellows during Amateur week. During practice the USGA Tech Center guys had a very impressive array of ball and club and distance testing equipment lined up behind the super long par 4 5th at Merion (504 yard par 4).

When Long John's numbers popped up on the USGA's Tech Center's computer it causes a certain amount of alarm and surprise. As Long John walked back to check the read-outs the head Tech Center guy exclaimed; MY GOD, HOW FAR DO YOU HIT THE BALL??

Long John, who's about 6'4", lean and muscular with a rather short swing and a swing plane that looks remarkable like IRON BYRON HISSELF said with a big bright Nebraska corn and beef grin---very, very, VERY FAR!  ;)

And off down the hole we all went where Long John hit a fine looking 8 iron to the green which came up slightly short on the false front roll on the front of the green and filtered back into the approach from where Long John made a nice bogie!   ;)

A 242 yard Ross par 3 for Long John? That would be a 5 iron and certainly no more than a 4 iron---that is unless he pushed one pretty much dead right as he is occasionally wont to do!  ;)

As with many power hitters Long John gets particularly disturbed if he hits one left (as Nicklaus used to get particularly disturbed if he ever hit one left). Most who play good golf know a draw or pull will go quite a lot farther than a fade or push and unbelievably for the length Long John hits all his clubs he pretty much always does try to hit a fade!!  ;)

I asked Long John's father if Long John felt comfortable hitting a draw on call. His Dad said; "Oh sure he can". This was as we approached the 14th hole at Merion that really does look to call for a real draw off the tee if a golfer of Long John's length is going to bring the ball back around to the fairway that far out (that is if he doesn't want to hurt someone on the 15th tee).

And so Long John did hit a beautiful draw out there to within a 60 degree L wedge range of the green from where Long John inexplicably proceeded to hit that L wedge fat about half way to the green!  ;)

When Tiger Woods said a few years ago that if people think he's long they should wait to see some of the kids coming up behind him. At the time I thought that showed a certain amount of false modesty on Tiger's part but apparently not. I suppose Tiger knows better and he must have been envisioning the Long John Hurley's of the world! I have the feeling if Long John stepped onto any tee with Tiger he'd probably have that big bright Nebraska corn and beef grin on his face just before he made virtual mince-meat out of Tiger's best shot with a nice controlled slight fade out there into the next zip code!  ;)
« Last Edit: September 08, 2005, 09:02:45 AM by TEPaul »

john_stiles

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Longest Original Ross Par 3 ??
« Reply #21 on: September 08, 2005, 09:01:37 AM »
I am not surprised a bit as Dick Rugge told me that the USGA was to be committed.  I mean committed to monitoring.  

Of course, on many of Ross' plans,  par was not assigned to any hole.   So, you could change the modern par for the young John Hurleys and the USGA could keep on monitoring.

Nothing would change except the scorecard. :-\

TEPaul

Re:Longest Original Ross Par 3 ??
« Reply #22 on: September 08, 2005, 09:07:32 AM »
John Stiles:

One interesting idea that has been floated on this site before would be to simply change the concept of par on a golf course to a single round gross score number instead of the total of the incremental and individual hole par numbers.

This would be a realistic thing to do in many ways as it probably doesn't matter exactly WHERE these great players go lower than par today, the point is that on any golf course in a gross score sense against par they just do so often.

TEPaul

Re:Longest Original Ross Par 3 ??
« Reply #23 on: September 08, 2005, 10:43:04 PM »

"Quote from: TEPaul on Today at 08:33:09am
When Tiger Woods said a few years ago that if people think he's long they should wait to see some of the kids coming up behind him. At the time I thought that showed a certain amount of false modesty on Tiger's part but apparently not.
 
I wonder what else you know less about than you think you do, fella!"

redanman:

The only legitimate thing that's possible is if there really is some way you could put your foot in your mouth more than you already have on here! Sometimes I think there never could be any way you could do that more than you already have but you never cease to surprise me.  ;)    

Luckily your take on Tiger Woods and everything about him and his career from the very beginning has been recorded on this website and the fact is no one (even perhaps including you) could possibly have been more wrong. ;)