Arcadia Bluffs

[Andy Troeger]

Tim,
   Just wanted to make sure. I think we all have somewhat different criteria that we focus on when looking at a golf course. If it was an exact science there wouldn't be much point to this discussion board! I worked at the ND course for a couple of years and played it many times, so I'm glad to hear that you do enjoy playing there!

[Tim_Weiman]

Andy,

We do all have a different criteria, of course! As for Notre Dame, I thought the place was fantastic.

[Craig Van Egmond]

I was fortunate enough to have played Arcadia with Tim and RJ and I found the course to be a blast. So much better than the much ballyhooed Bay Harbor.  Sure some ome of the bunkering was over the top sure but the course had a nice mix of holes, some great greens and was fun to play. I would play the course again for sure.

Bandon Dunes also has a mixture of bunkering styles, did anyone find that disconcerning?

[T_MacWood]

The differing bunker styles was a little odd, but not a major turnoff. I thought for the most part the bunkering (and the man-made dunes) was very well done, they showed a lot of creative talent.

There are a number of very good holes. I enjoyed the extreme greens as well...although I could see where some might think they were over the top.

What I could not understand was the awkwardness of the routing. From what I understand the course is largely man-made, you would think based on that the routing wouldn't be so disjointed. That was a major turnoff.

Five par-5's and five par-3's is a refreshing configuration. But I would have preferred more variety in the lengths of the par-3's and par-4's. Throw in at least one short par-3 and one or more shortish par-4's...and perhaps a 4 1/2 par-5.

The course borders on being too difficult, especially if the wind is up. Throwing in a variety of shorter holes would have made the course more fun IMO.

[Brian Cenci]

     If Arcadia Bluffs were in Bandon, Oregon I'm sure everyone would be praising it.  
     I lived very close to Arcadia and have watched it from the day they started ground work to now.  It is bottom line a great course.  If you can get past the fact that it is "maufactured" so to speak and not the minimalist approach to the course design, then you'll realize that it is truly a great course.  Not everything has to be the best out of the least.  Give someone credit for moving all that dirt to put their best product forward in some cases.  
    A friend and I both agreed that you could put Arcadia at the Bandon resort as a 4th course and there would be little to no drop off.  Arcadia has the best set of par 3's of any public I've played as well.
     I love playing it in the wind and I don't think the wind takes away from the playability any more than any of the Bandon courses.
     To me it boggles my mind how someone can say this is not a great course.  Is it over the top...a little.....manufactured....a little....but it doesn't take away from the fact that when you break it all down you've got one hell of a course.  Sit a #3 tee and tell me that is a great design to a hole?  Tee off on #10 with the wind funnelling into you and tell me that isn't a great blind shot?
     Arcadia's in my top 10, only Bandon Dunes, Crystal Downs, Prairie Dunes, Bandon Trails, and Pacifc Dunes are ahead of it.

[Matt_Ward]

Tim W said, "Henderson simply failed to do that,..."

Can you please tell me where (with clear specifics please) and how Warren Henderson came up short?

One other thing -- have you played the Straits Course at WS?

If you have -- can you please tell what your thoughts are on that course and how you stack the two of them together. Please no generalities -- if you can provide some real details it would be most appreciated. I will respond in kind after your reply.

Thanks ...

[Tim_Weiman]

Matt:

Not sure what I can add to what has already been said.

Some people apparently like mixing bunkers styles as Henderson did at Arcadia; others, like myself, find it to be a turnoff.

As Dick Daley pointed out, opinions on this subject were divided right from the beginning and this thread illustrates not much has changed.

Yes, I have played Whistling Straits (about four times), but I don't know if I'm up for a detailed comparison with Arcadia. I'm 50/50 on playing WS next week with a customer, so maybe then I'll feel more up to it.

If there is a point you're trying to make on the difference between these two courses, by all means share your thoughts and I'll try to respond.

[cary lichtenstein]

Matt:

I thought both courses were amazing, both in my top 20. I have played Arcadia Bluffs twice, but Whistling Straits only once quite a while back, so my memory is not sharp enuf to compare the 2 as to which one is better, but I thought they were both terrific.

I didn't care for 17 at WS, and I thought 18 didn't fit, but who am I to say that?

Cary

[Andy Troeger]

I played the Straits and Arcadia within the span of a couple of weeks in May/June.

I agree with Cary, both courses to me were fabulous. Manufactured and over the top yes, but they're not trying to disguise that part, and both architects to me did a great job of making the courses scenic, challenging, yet playable under different conditions. I scored much better at Arcadia, but it was a calmer day and from a shorter yardage.

I liked Whistling Straits a little better because I felt like the course did a better job of ending with some of the better holes with the exception of 18. Under the current routing to me almost all of Arcadia's best holes come in the early/middle portions of the round. I'd go back to either one. I personally liked Straits #17, but I thought 18 was over the top, especially at almost 500 yards! Maybe that was the intent however.

[Buck Wolter]

I've played Arcadia 20+ times in quite a range of conditions and have never found the course unplayable or unfair. At 25 mph winds it was a walk in the park compared to a couple other courses I've played in similar and expected wind conditions such as Royal County Down or Pebble Beach.

I find the comments about the diffrerent types of bunkering existing on one course amazing. Maybe it says more about what I have to learn but I had no idea this rule existed. From memory it seems that the blow out bunkers are on the periphery and the sod wall more as greenside and/or cross bunkers. I guess I was having too much fun thinking about how to take advantage of the width, deal with the firm conditions, the ground game options and the wildest set of greens I've ever played to step back and look at the incongruity of blow out and sod-walled bunkers on the same course.

I'd rather play Arcadia twice than Pebble once and though I've only walked WS I'd say the same about it. Throw in not needing an over-priced hotel room and it's a huge bargain.

Buck

[james soper]

cary, i'm sure the treehouse would be interested in hearing  your top twenty courses. i know i would. thanks, jim

[cary lichtenstein]

James:

My top 20 courses are courses that I love playing and would join as my home club if I lived in the area and could gain admission. They are not the top 20 courses for PGA professionals, nor are they the top 20 courses that majors could be played on, some are just too tough, e.g, Carnoustie.

My list is skewed to courses with significant topography and eye candy. So it is my list.

Pebble Beach
Cypress
Augusta
Whistling Straits
Lakota Canyon
Arcadia Bluffs
Sand Hills
Cog Hills
Fishers Island
Ballybunion
Pine Valley
Frair's Head
National
Black Rock
Royal Dorock
Royal County Down
St. Andrews

My next tier is very interesting and has some different courses in it that you might not expect. I have never really developed a firm list, but I liked the following an awful alot:

Sage Valley
Merion
Shinnecock
Grandfather Mountain

Recent courses that I have played that impressed me a whole lot are:

The Quarry at Giants Ridge
Greywalls
Black Mesa

[james soper]

cary, thanks for the list. a nice mix of different styles.