Scottish par fives...

[Yannick Pilon]

In a recent trip to Scotland where I played eight different golf courses, I was troubled on a couple of occasions regarding the way they seem to set up the par for every hole.

The best example of this is the 14th at Carnoustie, or Spectacles as people on this website would refer to it.  The par on this hole is 5 from the back tees (White) at 483 yards.  However, from the Yellow and Green tees, the yardage goes down to 468 & 456 yards for a par of 4.

Could someone explain to me the logic behind this?

Other examples of this can be found at:
Gleneagles no. 6. Par 5, 480 yds from tips, but Par 4, 455 yds from Yellow tees.
North Berwick no. 8. Par 5, 495 yds from tips, but Par 4, 462 yds from Blue tees.

These example, in most cases, sound like easy birdie or routine par for scratch golfers, and miraculous birdie or tough par for high handicappers who choose to play from the appropriate tees.

Shouldn't this situation be switched around or am I missing something here?

[Tom_Doak]

Yannick:

They do that pretty consistently everywhere in the UK.  Woodhall Spa goes from par 73 on the back tees to par 70 (but just 200 yards shorter) from the next tee up.

They're simply following the guidelines of defining par according to the yardage as suggested in the Rules book.  A scratch player "should" be able to make par from 456 yards but not from 480.

It's still just a number on the scorecard.  A four is a four.

[JNC Lyon]

This is quite unusual. At Oak Hill in Rochester, we have the reverse situation. Number Seventeen measures 460 from the white (member) tees as a par five, but 450 from the Blue (back) tees, playing as a par four. I have seen this at CC of Buffalo - it has two holes like this, and at a local public course in Rochester. I am not sure I agree with it. I think these particular holes should be played at the same yardage for everyone, at a yardage where the half-par nature of the hole is best appreciated. Fortunately, the 10 yards at Oak Hill's 17th make little difference, and it gives a unique twist to a fantastic penultimate hole.

[Yannick Pilon]

I have to agree, it is just a number on the scorecard....

But I have to confess....  At Gleneagles, playing from the Yellow tees at 6125 yds and a par of 68 (!), I just could not resist playing the sixth, tenth and eighteenth from the back tees.  With a handicap of 14.5 and being a short hitter, playing these three holes as par fours of 450 yds didn't sound like much fun... Plus, I just love par fives....

I just find it odd that they are so strict with those "guidelines".

[Doug Siebert]

Muirfield does that with its 9th, and I think Turnberry does as well.  All those holes are short enough they really ought to be 4s from the tips with today's technology.  Just be glad they don't play TOC's 9th as a really long par THREE from the regular tees and leave it as a 4 from the tips, because you know it really is one playing only about 280 with the prevailing wind and lots of roll to be had

But stuff like that which doesn't quite make sense is part of the charm of playing golf over there, and it wouldn't be such a treat if stuff like that was lost.

[Michael Whitaker]

This subject goes to the heart of a conversation that we had on another thread. I call it: "American" golf versus "UK" golf. As Tom Doak said, it's only a number. But, in the US we are so fixed on "The Number" that it affects the way we play a given course and, often, enjoy the game. Golf used to be played as a competitive game without so much regard to individual score. Now, it is played as a physical endeavor where the individual score is everything.

If you're playing a match it does not matter what "par" is on a hole. You either win the hole or you don't... doesn't matter what it takes to do it. But, Americans can't come home without an individual score on every course we play. Why? Because the first thing our friends and family ask is, "What did you shoot?" And Lord knows you don't want to have to say, "I don't know, we didn't keep individual scores. We just played our matches for fun... and drinks!"

On a couple of occasions, just as an experiment, I suggested to my friends that we play a "Game" and not keep individual scores that day... picking up when we're out of a hole. More than once I actually heard the reply, "What's the point of playing if I don't keep my score." My answer, "Having fun playing a game with your friends in less than four hours and not going home pissed because you shot 81 instead of 79."

[paul cowley]

Dropping a stroke from the back tees on short par fives and fours while leaving par the same for those on the forward tees would go along way in preserving the shorter classic courses.

Of course that would create alot of par 69 and 68's from the back....a good thing...
...its interesting to see that in europe they go the opposite way, lowering par for those using the forward tees...

[paul cowley]

...far from ceasing Sean, rant on and I'll stand you a pint in Pinehurst.....hearing anothers voice in the wilderness helps me stop thinking I haven't just been talking to myself.

Ciao

Paul

[Brian_Ewen]

Sean
I thought it was just me that showed frustration at my home club .  

How about the Stroke Index ? , should it also change along with the par ? .

Brian