Arcadia Bluffs

[cary lichtenstein]

Played Arcadia Bluffs today, in perfect condition, lots of eye candy and lots of excellent golf. Just loved the course. In my top 20.

Better yet, I think the variety of bunkers, styles and execution is about as good a set of bunkers as I have ever seen, sod stacked faces, pots, hairy faces, etc.

Other comments?

[Tom_Doak]

Cary:  How many courses are in your top twenty?  You seem to have a lot of them.  And how many of the consensus top twenty are you knocking out for your favorites?

[Tim_Weiman]

Cary:

As it happens I stopped into Acardia just about a week ago following a brief visit to Crystal Downs and plans to play at Notre Dame for the first time.

Seeing Arcadia again re-inforced the view I had following my first visit to Arcadia several years ago:

the "variety" of bunker styles doesn't work; it just makes the place look like a mess.

Go around a CD or Notre Dame and you have a feeling of class. Arcadia, by contrast, comes across a course designed by a less talented architect who tried too hard and just wound up with something that doesn't work.

Mind you, the place is a commercial success, I'm told.

[Anthony_Nysse]

Tim,
  I echo your thoughts. Whether playing a golf course for fun or looking at it in rater's eyes, I look for consistancy. I do not like the bunkering at Arcadia because there are blown out style bunkers and then stack sod wall bunkers.....you can't REALLY have both. That's something that I don't like about The Ocean Course-Some bunkers have hard lines and look very man man, which is fine, but the newer bunkers that Pete has added appear to be an attempt to have a blow out look and I think it takes away and shows the unconsistancies.

Tony Nysse
Asst. Supt.
Long Cove Club
HHI, SC

[Jim Thompson]

My two cents:

I think the things of Arcadia Bluffs are in the right places and if you could see them as just obstacles instead of styles they work very well.  I think stylistically they are a herky jerky mess with very little flow.  That said, I enjoy the course very much when I play it, but I try not to look too hard at it while I do.

Cheers!

JT

[Andy Troeger]

Arcadia to me was interesting because I thought there were two stretches of pretty inspired golf in holes 3-5 and especially 9-13. All those holes in some way or another made me want to play them and make return visits to try my luck again. As others have said, with the routing changes and different styles all in one I'm not sure that the course flows as well as some others, but its still a lot of fun and for me worth heading back to.

[cary lichtenstein]

Tom:

I have 18 courses in my top 20, room for 2 more

Knocking out consensus top 20? naw, just my own, and I don't claim my top 20 are better than the consensus top 20, they are just the ones that turn me on and make me want to play em over and over again. For example, 2 top 20 of the consensus that I knowck out are Seminole and Pinehurst #2

My top 20 are sort of like your 31 flavors in my own way, as I play courses in the future, I will change the number upwards. I would think that I will end up with about 30 in total.

I don't have a top 5 or 10 because in my mind, because that would limit me too much. When people ask me what is my favor course, I can never answer that because my head just bursts with past experiences and I find it impossible to answer.

Also, my top 20 are not necessarily the best tests for tournament or championship play, I kind of think they fit my own game as well, as I have played some of these with higher handicaps and some are just too hard. Nor am I straight enough to enjoy over tight courses on a regular basis.





Cary

[cary lichtenstein]

Interesting comments on the bunker styles, thanks for the responses

[Tom_Doak]

Cary:  Thanks for clarifying.  That puts a different light on things, although anyone's "personal top twenty" is heavily weighted by how many of the great courses they've actually played, and for most people here, I don't know what their sampling is.

I don't get to hide behind that shield because I have seen nearly all of the real top 100, so if I pick a top twenty I'm leaving out the real ones.  Hence the Gourmet's Choice with a slightly different set of rules to allow me some freedom to highlight some favorites without knocking back Shinnecock and Pebble Beach.

Confession:  I still have not played Arcadia Bluffs.  I've gone over there twice with tee times:  once it was pouring rain, and the other it was so cold and windy that players were walking off the course.  I walked the entire 18 on both occasions and wondered how playable it was when the wind is blowing, as it must be often, considering how similar the setting is to Crystal Downs.  So for those of you who loved it or didn't, my question:  was it windy when you were there?  Was it great in the wind, or just when it was relatively calm?

[Jfaspen]

I played here before the routing was changed maybe 4-5 years ago.  I must admit, i played the course with a much less critical eye than I would now, but at the time, i considered it the best course I've ever played.  
Tom: We played in a 20-25 mph breeze coming right off the lake and it didn't make the course unplayable.  Again, I've matured as a golfer and player of golf course since then, so when I go again, I will bring back a more detailed judgment.

I look forward to going back and playing the course again, some of the lake views are incredible and surely add to the overall experience.

Jeff

[Andy Troeger]

The day I played it was really not windy at all I would think compared to a normal day out there. The breeze was coming off the lake, however I don't think it could have been more than 10-15 at most. On such a calm day it was still very challenging but I thought also very playable. As a 3 hdcp I was playing great for about 11 holes before reality set in on the 12th tee (I'm probably not the first to have that happen there) and ended up with 78 which I was still pleased with (played abt 6600 I think). I think the design would allow for a reasonable amount of wind (although not having experienced it I can't say for sure), but I don't know how much fun it would be a in a 40 mph wind.

[RJ_Daley]

I only played it once with Tim Weiman and we slightly differed in our first take on the design and style of the course then.  As he states, he felt it was too much of two different styles of bunkers that didn't work for him in an aesthetic sense.  I agree that there are too many superfluous Mackenzie like bunkers in out of the way rough areas.  Even the enterance drive has them.  But that is the exact same thing as Whistling Straits and the Irish course.  I also liked the placment of most of the stacked sod turf walled bunkers within the fairway lines and greensides of the course.  The fairway contours, and bold greens make for a fine golf course in my view.  I get over the frenetic or herky jerkyness of the extraeaous and different style rough area bunkers in the same way I get over that stuff at Whistling Straits.  While I played Arcadia only once and a few times at Whistling and Irish, I'd still go back to Arcadia first.  I had more fun there, but wish it were just a bit easier so one could walk it comfortably.

[RJ_Daley]

BTW Cary, I haven't travelled nearly enough to have a top 20.  That implies that I'd need to see a universe of at least 100 highly regarded courses, and then have a top 20%.  I figure I only have 5 courses I've played that I would put in my top 20.  Arcadia doesn't quite rise to that, but it is very good IMO.  So I have a long way to go...

[Jim Thompson]

Tom,

Great question!  I've played it in 30 -40 mph winds, gusty 15-20 mph winds, and just a slight breeze.  The best, by far, was the playing in the howling wind.  The calm condition was the least enjoyable.  I heard a great quote but can't remember who said it, but it went something like - "A links course without wind is like a woman without clothes, no challenge."  I think it fits Arcadia very well.

Cheers!

JT

[Ken Fry]

I played Arcadia in a stiff 30 mph wind with an air temperature hovering around 40.  COLD but the course was enjoyable.  The last time out, mild breeze coming off the lake.

My question to those knocking the bunkering is this:  why do you feel things are a "hodge podge?"  The course is obviously very manufactured as to capture what I've been told is the look and feel of an Irish links.  It doesn't offend me in any way and creates interesting variety throughout the layout.  The mixture of sod walled bunkers and blow out bunkers add to that variety IMO.  I enjoy the course more with each playing.

Why do others feel differently?

Ken

[Matt_Ward]

I have had the pleasure in playing Arcadia Bluffs on two (2) consecutive days and I concur w Tom Doak regarding the wind velocity. My first round was in 10-15 mph wind -- the next day was a steady 25-30 mph. Big difference.

Just to help me out can someone please post the original course number sequence -- against what the course sequence is now.

Do people really see ay difference between the former and later?

Regarding th course -- I like it for what it provides. Unlie the sniping commet thrown in Warren Henderson's face -- I believe the layout is quite fun to play and there's more than sufficient width to accomodate nearly all types of players.

Frankly, the playability argument rests more with Arcaia than with the Straits course at WS in Wisconsin.

P.S. Guys, nuff with the "how the bunkers look" argyment. It borders on the petty because the core guts of the course is there IMHO. I don't doubt the impact of such an argument but to simply check the course off with that as the sole negative I have to say you're pushing too hard to find something. How bout a bit more to rest one's case upon?

[Doug Sobieski]

, but I don't know how much fun it would be a in a 40 mph wind.

Last time I played it the weather station in the golf shop said 40mph, and the staff was guessing that it was blowing 50mph closer to the lake. I found it remarkably playable, even in those conditions from the tips. There's plenty of room to drive it, so you can make your way around fairly comfortably.

 I thought it was fun, and actually bettered the course rating by 4+ shots. Maybe that's why I didn't find the wind that much of a nuisance  

[Andy Troeger]

Doug,  
  Good to hear, I'll hope for a little more interest from Mother Nature next time I head up. I did notice there was quite a bit of room on most holes (goodness knows I usually need it whether or not there is wind!), so I can see that while the course would play different, it would still be reasonable. However, I would say that the course is certainly still a challenge on a fairly calm day.

Having not had much chance to play courses with the sod-walled bunkers I didn't probably pay as much attention to the others. I spent more time worrying about avoiding the bunkers in general than worrying about what kind of bunker it was. I found the course very enjoyable, especially the downhill holes heading toward the lake. I would expect those holes might be even more fun with strong wind in your face.

Matt,
  I didn't play the course with the original routing so I can't help you. I believe (?) that Ron Whitten did a review that included most of the information as to what the routing changes were and what the original sequence was, you might check his archives for the info.


Andy

[Jim Thompson]

Matt & Ken,

The comments relative to the looks of the bunkers IS relevant in discussing the courses visual merit.  It is not relevant to its playability.  I enjoy playing the course very much.  I think the features are well placed and very functional to the round that is played there.  That said, I would prefer that either all of the bunkers were of the same style or that their location / placement in the course of a hole or on the greater landscape dictated their style.  I see no indication of an approach to the stylizing of various bunkers on the course and visually find it a messy look.  There may very well have been a well thought out plan, perhaps I don’t get it.  If there was such a plan I’d love to explore it for the sake of understanding the approach taken.  Remember I’m in a self imposed 12 step program to not be such an accountant type.

The fact that bunkering styles is one of the very few criticisms I have of the course should be considered a great compliment and I certainly hope it is taken as such.  I am sure there are those out there that feel AC would be better with flash sand, because they prefer flash sand, and they are certainly entitled to there opinion.  I think my bunkers would be awesome in stacked sod, but I can’t afford it.

The manufactured nature of construction exists on every site so that doesn't bother me at all.  Some blatant manufacturing even has an honest look to my minds eye.  Such as square tee pedestals or Raynor’s parallel lines.  If I were to nit pick Arcadia and make another comment it would be that I don’t care for the method they used in seeding their outer rough areas.  The CAT cleat tracks are impossible to hit out of but, I understand the cost savings over other erosion control methods.  At the end of the day these are pretty minor items that no ten of us could ever agree on about any course.

Cheers!

JT

[Don Dinkmeyer]

I've played it many times; spend time in the area in summer - so mostly at the twilight rate.

I am curious as to opinions on the greens - they are the most "radical" i've ever seen - at least in their slope, eg #2 and #5 as a 3tier...

The 2 styles of bunkers don't bother me too much. The comment, though, on the talent level of the architect is interesting - doesn't Warren Henderson check into this board from time to time?

[Anthony_Nysse]

Matt and Ken,
  In agreeance with Jim in what he says regarding the bunkering.....it would be like Sand Hills or Kingsley having stacked sod walled bunkers. I cannot think of a better way to compair it. Being a "Rick Smith/Warren Henderson" design, knowing now they have gone separate ways, maybe Warren did the blow out style bunker and Rick is responsible for the stacked sod wall.

Tony Nysse
Asst. Supt.
Long Cove Club
HHI, SC

[cary lichtenstein]

Let me give my take on the bunker "styles". I think that when an architect uses only one style bunker (with the exception of blowout bunkering), I think it gets redundant and somewhat boring dependent upon execution and how the architect various the look within the style.

To risk criticizing a scarced cow here, I thought the bunkering at Hidden Creek was redundant and gave the holes a sameness look.

The bunkering at Arcadia was refreshing and varied. The bunkers that were out of play and merely decorative add to the overall look that Henderson achieved.

[Tim_Weiman]

Matt Ward:

I'm curious what you mean by "pushing too hard to find something".

The whole reason I go out of my way to play a golf course is to find something that provides pleasure. I'm not looking to find something bad; I'm hoping to find something good.

For me Arcadia was a disappointment. It simply lacks the grace a place like Notre Dame has, even though the latter site is less blessed with an attractive setting.

I don't see it as "petty" to ask an architect to get both strategy and aesthetics right. Henderson simply failed to do that, but it doesn't mean Arcadia is a bad course.

[Andy Troeger]

Tim,
  I'm a little confused as to what you're criticizing about Arcadia when you say it doesn't have grace? You haven't really criticized anything specific about the course other than the bunker styles. That seems like a fairly minor detail to me as well, but if its important to you then so be it. However, to me saying it doesn't have grace just sounds like the course just struck the wrong chord with you.

  It is certainly not petty to ask that an architect get strategy and aesthetics right, but what specifically did Henderson do wrong? I thought the course did both very well.

[Tim_Weiman]

Andy,

I can only repeat what I've already said: Arcadia just looks like a mess to me because of what was done with the bunkers. By contrast, a place like Notre Dame has a grace and class to it because everything fits together so nicely.

For me mixing bunker styles just doesn't work, but obvviously there are some people for whom such things don't matter.