[paul cowley]

Perusing Hutchinson's book on historical British golf courses, it occurred to me that many of the clearly man made 'hazards' depicted bore a similarity to the 'natural' obstacles found on the grass circuits or steeplechase courses popular in that equine era....emulated and /or transferred in early golf course design attempts.
We all know there was a connection between horses and golfing in the sporting clubs of that earlier period.....were there persons proficient in steeplechase design that might have dabbled in early golf design as well?...it seems that the strategies of 'clearing' obstructions bore similarities.

what say you all?

...and if there are any steeplechase designer folks lurking that want a second opinion...912 222 1616

[paul cowley]

Andy ...how old are you and do you/and or are you a hurdler?

[TEPaul]

Paul:

In my opinion, probably the greatest evidence of similar characteristics between the horse, equestrianism and early golf architecture (Steeplechase golf, as you call it) was in America, not Britain. Hence all the combination clubs over here early that developed golf courses called Hunt Club this and Hunt club that. Many of them were hunting, steeplechasing, horse racing and polo.

We're talking here some really significant early courses like Myopia Hunt Club. Brookline, Piping Rock, Old Westbury, Meadowbrook Hunt etc, etc. Even a few later ones like the combined Bidermann/Vicmead Hunt. The list is long.

What are you hatching now in that over-active little "outside the box" mind of yours? If it's some combinations in look, style or ethos between the early world of the horse and the early world of golf course architecture, I'm right with you. I'll plug in some interesting history for you in that vein that'll blow your soxes off. Maybe we could even go investigate old Fort Devins, Kansas. That's where all the old aristocatic polo players and such went when they had to go into the military. It was an old cavalry base. Just think, a combination military, equine and golf architecture nexus. You'll go nuts with ecstasy.

Didn't you hear me mention the post and rail fence yesterday? What did you think that was all about---cows or something? It's vestiges of the horse world plugged into golf course architecture.

[Bill_McBride]

Both Chicago Golf Club and the Country Club in Boston had racecourses or polo fields in the center, right?  Chicago's routing didn't move away from the perimeter until the polo field was absorbed by golf holes like #11 and 12 and probably 5 and 6.

[paul cowley]

Geesh Tom...I'm trying to be serious and you have to go and blow my cover.............but the Fort Polo Golf Club, now that resonates with me [with post and rail OB of course]  

[paul cowley]

...and readers this is serious stuff....wake up historians..TomMac, Rihc....smell the coffee.

BillMacB not included

[paul cowley]

and, in as Muccian a tone as I can muster, the question was "is there any evidence of early golf course and equestrian course design cross over" or "features cross pollenization" or "shared cross bunker obstaclization features"....ya know what I mean.............

[Wayne_Kozun]

Are there any golf courses that still coexist with horse race courses other than Musselburgh?

[ForkaB]

Wayne

Royal Ascot Golf Club existed within the confines of Ascot racecourse until this year, when they moved to a new course nearby.

paul

please don't call me a (an?) "historian."  i just like golfing trivia....

[Tony_Muldoon]

The thing about horse race tracks is they need to be mostly flat so the punters can see, so any obstacles have to break this up. Most placeshave good turf that drains well.  So on the face of it it's only a 50% fit, hence perhaps the los survival rate of these old courses.

[T_MacWood]

Paul
That is what Darwin (and others) compared those early golf courses to. Some thought they were more like military earthworks or fortifications.

I agree with you, those early inland courses appear to be heavily influenced by the prevalent sport and outdoor pursuits...especially those sports that had strictly defined, geometric, usually flat playing surface: tennis, cricket, football, horse racing, etc. And they were all played on grass as well.

There are a handful of different descriptions from Hutchinson, Darwin, etc. in the first part of the A&C essay (In My Opinion section).

[Mark_Rowlinson]

There are a few other courses in the UK wandering around, through or over racecourses:  Northumberland, Great Yarmouth, Ludlow come to mind - there may be more.

[Darren_Kilfara]

I don't think Paul is asking about golf courses built in and around racecourses - I think he's referring to hazards like the stereotypical Scottish burn, which wouldn't look out of place as an obstacle on a steeplechase course. I can certainly think of a few old-style courses with cross bunkers having steep faces but shallow backs, and a fair amount of width but minimal front-to-back depth, which also look like earthworks for horses to clear (up to several at a time as well) on a steeplechase round. So yeah, this seems like a good shout by Paul to me...

Cheers,
Darren

[paul cowley]

Thanks Darren [this site can be like herding kittens at times]

[RT]

Perhaps what Darren is meaning.

[TEPaul]

Paul:

Talk about similarity of features, it's pretty hard to deny how similar things like the sunk water jump feature looks to a cop bunker, for instance.

But if you want to see how similar this stuff once was let me take you to Marion G.C. in Mass. It's a little nine holer that was the first effort of the great George Thomas in 1905. If you take out the little greens (some of which are just over a wall) and if you look at all the little berms and such you'd think the golf course WAS a steeplechase course!  

[RE Blanks]

Somerset Hills was built over a horse track that still comes into play on 5, 6, and 7.  The former track looks like a ditch cutting across the fairways but if you look at an overhead photo you can still see the distinct oval shape of the horsetrack that existed over the front 9.  This is the link from google maps.  Click on the link and then zoom in.  

http://maps.google.com/maps?ll=40.721819,-74.583510&spn=0.003808,0.005963&t=k&hl=en

[Tags:]

Tags:

[Tags:]

Tags:

Call to undefined function theme_linktree()