Is Merion Really Ready to Handle a US Open ?

[mike_malone]

 Tom,
      The problem seems to be that as time goes by we will see more control from the long iron tee shots on those short holes. Recall our conversation with Jim Nagle the other day? He felt the challenge that needs to be enhanced is forcing them to "work" the ball. I don't see that on the tee shots on the short holes at Merion.

  The prototypical  championship hole may #3 at Baltusrol. It seems to require a managed drive to a difficult landing area where hitting it too straight is trouble. They made the yardage 500. The green is well protected and has significant internal contour.


   Which holes at Merion require "working" the ball off the tee? #14? #15? Maybe

[ForkaB]

Thanks, TEP

So where is the New New 18th tee?  The one we played was in another County and required about a 250 carry to get over the quarry.

[Mark_Fine]

Was The Old Course ready to handle The Open?  How many wedges did they hit over there?  How many par four greens could they drive?  Did it provide a formidable test for the best worthy of that championship?  

Let's see where the game is in six or seven years.  If things continue as they are, the answer here might be more obvious.

[wsmorrison]

Mike,

Wedges, yes on holes 7, 8, 10, 11 and 13.  But these are some of the most difficult wedge shots I've ever seen.  They may come in bunches but that is the beauty of Merion's routing.  The middle act is short but exceedingly demanding.  The other two acts are long and difficult.  It is a great routing progression with a lot of psychological and physical demands throughout.  

If you hit a wedge onto 9 green without Hurricane Katrina at your back from the scratch player's tee I'll pay off your mortgage.  If you don't, you pay for the dinner after Tom and I beat some sense into you.  You'll be crying "Mayday" that night for sure    No way in hell you're hitting a wedge into 12 either.  The lengthening of these holes were critical and well pulled off.  There was no way you were hitting wedges on these holes from any tee in any case.  

Yardage isn't of itself important on strong designs like these.  I would hope you'd realize it by now.  The approaches are difficult ones and there is a price to pay for missing the correct portion of the green and a far greater penalty in all cases for missing the green--in proportion to the miss.  This is the genius of the use of topography and the green and bunker designs.  

Are you telling me that 11 is a simple 3-iron and wedge?  Hardly!

I don't think they need to soften 5, 12 and 15.  The greens usually play at the same speed as the other greens.  If they did play a bit slower, and I heard they did--it was not necessary in my view.  It may have had something to do with climate and conditions--I'll look into that.

I think both course set-ups were not pushed anywhere near reasonable limits in terms of pin positions (pretty easy at PCC) and maintenance (did PCC roll their greens?).  The Debaufre and the Wilson are both played under more difficult pins and conditions.  It was  deliberate set up instructions that some of the members at Philadelphia Country Club for one were not happy about as they feel it did not represent the tournament conditions they are used to for their own events.

"Seven or eight years from now those 500 yard par fours will be 2 to 3 clubs less."

You cannot possibly have any idea what you're saying here.  Where is this distance coming from?  Did you speak with Frank Thomas about this issue?  Do you test balls and implements to know this is happening?  Or are you making a guess here?  Do you know what the USGA and R and A have in mind?  That is a pretty bold statement without any facts to back it up.  This is a dangerous way of thinking (or not thinking) and should be guarded against.

"Merion is a relic of the past. It is a beauty of a relic"

Did you talk to any of the competitors this past week?  Do you know what they thought of Merion?  Quite a large number said it was the hardest course they've ever played.  It isn't hard because of the scorecard length--though at par 70 with 2 par 5s and a number of short holes, other holes are very long and all are difficult.  There are only a few birdie holes and the rest hard pars.  Can't you see this?  A relic?  Jeeezus, Mike.  To whom?  The 311 guys that had 4 one-under rounds under not so difficult conditions?  Or to you?

I will agree that the logistics are hard to overcome.  If an Open comes under the right logistical constraints, great.  But the club will not be in any way a relic if it does not.  The outside the course constraints are great.  But as an Amateur and Walker Cup venue there are few if any better.  Merion is one terrific stroke play course as is and is even better as a match play course because it requires so much strategic thinking and execution.

[mike_malone]

 Mark,

    That brings up a very interesting difference between the ground game and the aerial game. At TOC it was the quirkiness of the ground game that challenged the best players, but on most of the short Merion holes it is an "dialed in" wedge. Isn't that a big difference?

  I love how a short hole at TOC can evolve from a bump and run to an attempt to drive the hole. But at Merion all I can see evolving is more aerial control.

[TEPaul]

Mayday:

Interesting your reference to Nagle talking about the need to "work" the ball. On the "short stretch" at Merion that is not in the slightest necessary on #7,8,11, but the player most definitely feels the need to "work" the ball on #10 and #12 and most certainly if he's being aggressive with a longer tee shot, perhaps as much as any two tee shots I've seen.

[mike_malone]

 Wayne,

   I wasn't speaking of my pitiful game, but that of those who play in the US OPEN. I didn't say it was a wedge to #9.

    Don't start asking questions like Pat Mucci, it takes forever to answer them and you already know the answer anyway.


   It just seems logical  that the best players will push technology to its limits. If they reach some limit with the driver than they will move through the bag.



    Merion hasn't had an Open for 20 + years. The conditions preventing that will only worsen in the next 5 + years. That train has left the station.

[mike_malone]

 Tom,

    I'm not sure you are familiar with the word "work".

[wsmorrison]

I know the answers to those questions, Mike.  I hope you do, but if you did you wouldn't make absurd statements.  You don't have to answer them on my behalf but think about them for your own.

When you say that there will be a two club increase in distance in the next seven or eight years, I can't figure out how you determined this.  I am inclined to think it is made up without any basis in fact or research on your part at all.  As for your recent statement that conditions having to do with the course  preventing a return of an Open will worsen over the next five years, what is that based on?  Just where do you get these figures?  I think you're sitting on the source as we write

Tom is absolutely correct.  There is certainly an advantage to moving the ball on 6, 14 and 15 but by far the greatest demands are with a driver on 10 followed by driver on 12.

American golf began to be differentiated from golf in the UK with aerial shot demands.  Pine Valley and Merion had huge influences on Flynn and Flynn had some pretty significant influences on them as well, particularly architecturally at Merion and agronomically with some design at Pine Valley.  Flynn viewed aerial shots as one more facet of golf that needed to be tested.  He did not abandon the ground game but felt necessary to test both.  Sometimes he offered both options but with a particularly hard demand on one--often the ground game option with a pinched in opening and sometimes sloped front.

[Steve_ Shaffer]

From Joe Logan's column in yesterday's Inquirer:

...Personally, I hope Merion celebrates the success of the Amateur and the strength of its golf course.

And then, I hope somebody at Merion with a lot of sense and a lot of influence pipes up and says, "What more do we need to prove? Forget the Open. Let's do an Amateur every 10 years."

[mike_malone]

 It is the aerial challenge  for the best players that is lessened at Merion now versus 25 years ago. Do you think the  trend will change?

 Wayne,

   The question was about the U.S. Open; the answer is no!



    This challenge continues for us mere mortals.

[Mark_Fine]

One thing I will add to this post and I believe someone eluded to it earlier is that very few courses have benefited from trying to attract a big tournament like the U.S. Open to their golf course.  You can count them on one hand (you might only need a finger or two).  

Clearly the focus of whoever is brought in to do the course "prep work" is driven (or will be driven) by how the pros will play the golf course at that time.  That can only lead to problems especially on a wonderful classic design like Merion.  

I've seen it happen and have been involved in all the discussions that go on with my work out at Cherry Hills.  I am absolutely convinced that Cherry Hills' historic Flynn design would have been lost forever if the club decided to pursue another U.S. Open.  Thank goodness they instead decided to preserve and cherish their wonderfull classic design.  If the ball is scaled back or something changes in the future, hey, you never know.  

[mike_malone]

 Mark,
       I agree. I think some want the USGA to change their requirements so that an Open can be held at  Merion.

[Jim Nugent]

Wayne,

   I wasn't speaking of my pitiful game, but that of those who play in the US OPEN. I didn't say it was a wedge to #9.

    Don't start asking questions like Pat Mucci, it takes forever to answer them and you already know the answer anyway.


   It just seems logical  that the best players will push technology to its limits. If they reach some limit with the driver than they will move through the bag.



    Merion hasn't had an Open for 20 + years. The conditions preventing that will only worsen in the next 5 + years. That train has left the station.

The USGA could invite several top pro players to play Merion several times.  (Tiger, Vijay, Ernie, etc.)  Try to set up the course in close to U.S. Open conditions.  That will give the USGA some real-life input on how top proīs can score there.  

[mike_malone]

 Jim,
     I think they learned enough last week to extrapolate.


   It was a wonderful week, particularly for the golf fans here in Philly.

   I look forward to the Walker Cup. I will go out there to watch it.

  If they try to "shoehorn" an Open there, I will stay home and watch it on TV.

[JESII]

To cover what Tom Paul referrenced earlier about the distances different levels of players hit the ball, from my observations, taking the average PGA Tour player - The average Nationwide Tour player - and the top mini-tour players:
-The minitour players hit the ball the furthest (30 - 50 yards past me.
-Nationwide guys were next at 10 - 20 yards past me.
-I would be considered just above average in the PGA Tour distance ranks.

1)I think it is fair to assume that the US Am match play competitors that turn pro will generally play on minitours.
2)This observation does not include the top PGA Tour pros(Tiger, Phil etc...), but does take into account actual statistics at the end of tournaments.
3)My conclusion is that the higher the level one reaches, the more ball control they must have. This lends itself to accuracy off the tee at the expense of distance.

From the World Golf Rankings 6 of the top 7 average over 300 yards. Of the next 20 or so, only two average over 300 and about half average under 290.



The arguments on here stating some lack of strength at Merion baffle me. The argument about shaping shots - Todays equipment greatly limits the ability even if you try, and besides, where do you HAVE TOwork the ball at any other Open course? Seven holes in a row with 5 or 6 wedges....seven really great holes and not a gimmie in the lot, #13 would prove the easiest with #10 close behind, but the variety of decisions and shot requirements make this stretch really good (and like Wayne said, you've got to take advantage here or else you really feel like you've let it go).



Tom Paul,

Really cool ideas about the fairways on 14 and 18. I never knew that about #14 fairway going over to the road. Obviously unlikely prior to a potential Open (that's where 5 of the 15 thousand people have to stand ) but I love the concept of great big wide fairways with center hazards (#14) or deceptive angle and playability from much of the fairway (#18) as you mention.



Steve Shaffer,

I was thinking the exact thing. Trouble with all of us voicing our opinions about what a private club and another private organization should do is that none of us have a say. Merion has its reasons for wanting a US Open, and the USGA apparently wants to host another Open there. What can we do as Philadelphia based golf fans? Hope for the best and see what happens.

[Jim Nugent]

Jim,
     I think they learned enough last week to extrapolate.

Well, isnīt that one of the main questions of this thread --  whether Merion is strong/long enough to resist the pro game?  Plenty of guys here say it isnīt.  We donīt have to leave the question entirely to debate though.  We can test it out.

What did the USGA learn?  That a guy who averaged over 75 this year at school made it to the finals of the U.S. Amateur.  Not sure what that tells us about the pro game, which plays on a higher octave.  

[JESII]

Jim,

Your suggestion would certainly help clarify any "on-course" problems, but just imagine trying to schedule whatever number of guys you have in mind for a "test-day"

Besides, with Shinnecock still fresh in their minds, how many would oblige the USGA?



FYI though, this summer Els, Chad Campbell and Elkington all visited Merion at some point and had high praise for the course itself.

I think the USGA is significantly more concerned (like 99% of their concern) with the off-course logistics involved with running a USOpen here. The fact that Brookline is also thinking about the same time frame (2013?) and would need some financial concessions by the USGA also plays a factor.

[mike_malone]

 Jim,
     Merion is out of bullets. They can't lenghten; they won't( and shouldn't) change the angles. It is over for them when it comes to  a bigtime pro tournament.

[wsmorrison]

"Mark,
      I agree. I think some want the USGA to change their requirements so that an Open can be held at  Merion."

"Jim,
    Merion is out of bullets. They can't lenghten; they won't( and shouldn't) change the angles. It is over for them when it comes to  a bigtime pro tournament."

Which is it?  You want the Open at Merion (whatever these requirements you speak of are) or it is impossible to have it there?  

Do you have a clue?

Guys like Els, Elkington, Campbell, Faldo think it can hold an Open.  Jim Sullivan, who knows infinitely more than you about professional golfers, believes the course is not the issue.  The 311 amateurs believe the course is not the issue.  The USGA does not believe the course is an issue.  Mike, repeat after me..."The course is not the issue."  The other logisitical constraints are the issue.  It probably won't happen, but so what?  The course is just fine.  No need to change angles...I don't even know what you're talking about there.  But what else is new?  I don't think you know what you're talking about.

[JESII]

Jim,
     Merion is out of bullets. They can't lenghten; they won't( and shouldn't) change the angles. It is over for them when it comes to  a bigtime pro tournament.

said with your best Latin accent:
Hey Lucy, you got some splainin' to do...


Mike,

I'm not sure I'm mentally prepared to walk through this step by step with you and I'm not interested in barking opinions back and forth so I'll try to address your earlier stated positions and hopefully you can do the same with mine or simply comment on my analysis of your statements.

Merion at 6,850 par 70 plays significantly longer than any comparable course for a couple reasons: Several irons off tees where you really don't have the option to hit driver. This means a 350 hole still requires a full wedge approach. This is equivalent to a 425 hole that offers less accuracy and control challenge than those holes at Merion. Counting #'s 1, 7, 8, 10 and 11 you can add an equivalent yardage of 375 to the 6850 to get to 7225. Second, Only the fourth and ninth offer downhill approaches that actually cut the "play distance" of the course. How many other course can you name play uphill? Very few would be my guess but I do not have a prolific course resume so feel free to correct me. Third, you defend par at the green. Merion does this so well when it's firm and fast it's scarry.

[johnk]

JESII,

What current US Open course doesn't defend par at the greens?  Maybe Torrey won't, but I don't think any of them depend on length to defend par.

Your point about needing to shape shots is well taken, though I think that the top pros can do that better than anybody in the world - especially if they choose to use irons and utility woods.

Would you agree that it would be no disadvantage at Merion for a Mickelson, Tiger or Vijay length player to use only 3wood and above?  I think 4wood could well be the minimum club in the bag for those players.

It's a matter of opinion, but I do think Merion would have to be set up perfectly or over the edge, because it would rely very heavily on the greens to do what the USGA likes with respect to scoring.

As I said, I hope we do get to see it happen.  I think it would be a good course for the Open.  I just happen to think that the pros would score better than they do at Pinehurst, Pebble, Olympic, etc....

[TEPaul]

"Tom,
I'm not sure you are familiar with the word "work"."

By work the ball I mean to turn it somewhat. Having watched a lot of players last week on Merion I'd say the only holes a good player would really think to work or turn a tee shot somewhat for an extra benefit of position are only holes #10, #12 and #14 somewhat.

#10 if they really want to get close to the green they need to turn the ball right to left around that tree about 90 yards off the tee.

#12 is the hole most players really try to turn the ball left to right out of the chute and well around to the right with a driver.

#14 the feeling is definitely there to turn the drive right to left some around the trees hanging over Clubhouse Rd and up to the fairway section that swings left around the rough inset.  

[JESII]

John,

from what I've seen, Pinehurst, Oakmont and Winged Foot defend par at the greens very well. Pebble and Bethpage do not seem to in my opinion. Pebble better than Bethpage purely due to the size of the greens (quite small by my memory at Pebble). I list Bethpage because it seems to be a future every 8-10 years host. Speed and rough alone do not do it, at Merion you can divide up the green and surrounds into quadrants with the hole on a given day being the center and most of the miss areas leave no chance to make par. When you have this type of defense at the green you force players to control the ball from the fairway much better - when they are forced to have control from the fairway they are forced to control their ball from the tee more to get it in the fairway - you lose the Vijay mindset of blast away because 120 out of the rough is better than 160 in the fairway.


When you say 3wood and above I assume you mean nothing stronger than a 3wood. Those strong players you mention in this hypo would put themselves at a disadvantage on holes 2, 4, 5, 6, 12, 14 and perhaps 18 if they left driver in the trunk. 2 and 4 might be reachable with driver (for these guys) and not with fairway woods.
-5 and 6 are so long and to such difficult greens that the 20 or 30 yards gained with driver would prove valuable, so long as the accuracy was close enough. On #5, I believe 280-285 is the tightest area off the tee.
-12 would be playable with a 3wood for these guys, but I guarantee few would hit it, the green is so tough they want as much control going in as possible.
-14 could only be played with a 3wood for a very conservative long hitter or one that has no ability to move the ball right to left. The landing area at 260 - 280 is much more forgiving than at 300, but the second is exponentially more difficult from that increased 30 yards.
18- I think many long / smart players would hit 3wood off this tee in an attempt to stay short of the downslope which begins around 200 from the green. The green is so difficult to hit (mostly front-to-back slope) that the uphill lie at 210 might be easier than the downhill at 170. But they also might think they can hit it far enough to get way down the hill to hit a wedge in ehich I could hardly argue with.

[Patrick_Mucci]

JES II,

Pebble Beach's greens are so small, and some of the surrounds so penal, that you'd have to say that Pebble defends par at the greens as well.

Not by excessive contouring, but, by slope, size and surrounds.