Is Merion Really Ready to Handle a US Open ?

[johnk]

Boy, I put up a pretty even-handed post about Merion being a good site, and get subtly attacked by TEPaul... I'm moving up in the world, I guess.

I've never been to Merion, but I did watch 4 hours of coverage this weekend.  My main points are:

 - Pros are a lot better at every facet of the game than the competitors in the US Amateur.  
 - The US Am players in the quarterfinals are not nearly as long as the top pros
 - Merion has a lot of holes that would be long iron, SW.  And they certainly are within the driving distances of 30-40 Tour players.  Whether it's strategic or not, wasn't my point.  The need to hit long iron approaches, which the USGA likes to see being hit, wouldn't be satisfied most of the par 4s.
 - Getting Merion to play faster and firmer than it did this week would require a good deal of luck with the weather.  
 - Therefore, the scoring would be higher than the USGA usually accepts.
 - Merion would be a good site for a US Open Championship.

I'm just giving my opinion - maybe I will never understand golf architecture like TEPaul - but I think you'd have an interesting Open, but I don't think it would satisfy the assumed/perceived USGA scoring goals.  And I'm not sure it really requires a in depth analysis of architecture to justify my opinion...
 

[Dan Herrmann]

John,
Let me tell you - the course looked 1000 times harder in person than on TV.  These guys played great golf and should be commended.  Remember - they were the best 2/4 out of 311 players!  Of course they'd shoot great numbers.

I sure hope Merion gets the Open in a boutique style.  Then again, I'd love to see the NCAA Basketball Final 4 in a smaller venue too.

[johnk]

I believe that Dan, but I have a question:

If pros could carry the ball 30+yds farther than Molinari and the other quarterfinalists, with similar or better accuracy, would that make the scoring any easier in your opinion?

[JESII]

JamieS and JES11;

Tom,

That's JES and two capital I's for JESII, not 11. Please, the guy has 20,000 posts and can't figure out someones moniker. Starting to worry about you Mr. Paul.



I guess a large portion of this site is speculation and dealing with it. I'm not sure if it's a good or bad thing. I guess overall it's good for the volume of the discussions, but getting past the speculation to the facts seems more difficult than it has to sometimes, oh well.


How did you feel the lengthened holes help up to these players? #2, #3, #5, #6, #12, #14, #15, #17, #18.

From a pure pure playing standpoint they are phenomenal in my opinion.

#2 - has returned some risk/reward to the tee shot decision. Certainly a good thing.
#3 - I did not see much of this hole, but the length alone make a significantly more difficult par.
#'s 5 and 6 are now two of the most difficult Par 4's (not converted par 5's) on the planet. Both were always good holes, but I hit 8 or 9 irons into them when I last played there 6 years ago. Not no more!!
#12 - By adding 30 or so yards to the hole you now put a club 3 clubs longer in the hands of the player going into that green, enough said.
#14 - Was the longest 410 in golf, now the longest 440 in golf. I do feel the re-work (restoration?) on the left side of the green helps the player, which is not a bad thing by any means.
#15 - Awesome!!
#17 - Say what?? Looks like a short par four to me, and might be well played that way.
#18 - Perfect, by no means too long, but absolutely requires two very precise shots. One of the very few long par fours that get more difficult the closer one gets to the green. I would bet the pros would frequently hit whatever club they thought would place them right on the upslope between about 200 and 215 (after several playings and a bit of understanding).

What do others think of these holes and their changes?

[JSlonis]

John,

I just don't see where the USGA can find fault with Merion "not" defending par this past week.  It held up extremely well given the softer than ideal conditions.

Sully,

I think your above statements regarding Merion are right on.  The added length on #3 definitely made it a bit harder.  Although with that green design, the hole could be 120 yards and still be difficult.

[JESII]

John,

I don't think your posts were negative or attacking, and I did not try to criticize back, but I'll tell you why (non-architecturally) Merion would hold up fine.

1) a very few players hit the ball 30 yards further than Molinari did this weekend.
     1a)Those that do hit it nowhere as accurate
2) The holes you referrence being under 350 (I'll guess at #'s 1, 7, 8, 10, 11) are never driver holes in medal play. The only one that might be under any circumstances is #10 and pros are so good with their wedge that they'd be crazy to pass up an opportunity at a flat 70 -100 yard shot from a flat lie to try and hit a high hook the exact right distance to be able to two-putt for birdie when the consequences are probably par at best.
3) The golf course would only need a little bit of luck to get the golf course firmer and faster than this week.
     3a) The golf course was not nearly as firm and fast as it could be if it had not suffered through the summer it did. June is a great month for golf course conditioning in Philadelphia.
4) The pros have long irons in their hands approaching greens on #3, #5, #6, #9 maybe, #14, #17, and probably #18 if they follow my advice.
     4a) If we're counting tees and par fives, they will have 14 long irons in the course of a round. Not bad.

[Mark_Fine]

I think Lynn tried to make a point about the U.S. Open, but it didn't seem to go through.  It is not so much about the golf course as it is about everything else that goes with hosting that golf tournament.  Right or wrong, the golf course is only a small portion of the issues that need to be considered in site selection.  

If the question is - could the course handle "a U.S. Open", I would say it is doubtful.  Could the course test the best players in the world, I would suggest that it could.  

[JESII]

Mark,

I think despite Lynn's well thought out points, many, many people doubt the actual strength of the golf course at Merion. Lynn is dead nuts right in explaining the reasons Merion will not host an Open again, but most people don't buy it. The posts about its total length being too short and its need to have ridiculous conditions to hold up are really off the mark.

In this day and age of the USGA looking for inspiring golf courses to host its Open, Merion is as equipped as any of the stalwarts such as Pebble, Pinehurst, Shinnecock, Oakmont and Winged Foot, and better equiped than all the rest.

[Lynn_Shackelford]

Yes, Merion is a great design.  It can probably defend against today's equipment as well as any course can.  But the USGA, contrary to what they say in public like a score around 280.  Up until the champion shot lights out, they probably were comforted.  But I suspect that last round left an impression.
I think Nick Price played there a year ago and simply said, "it is a great course which would provide a great champion."  You however must not be too concerned with the scoring."
Hannigan said the greatest US Open during his tenure at EX. Director was the 71 Open.
"The two best players (Nicklaus, Trevino) vying on the best course."
It would be great to see, but don't count on it.

[Sean Leary]

Does anyone think that a decision for 2012 may based upon whether Brookline gets the Open in 2013.  From everything I've heard, The Country Club will only host it if if it is scaled back spectatorwise like what we are talking about here.  NO way the USGA will do back to back "non-moneymakers".  One or the other (possibly) but not both......

[Dan_Callahan]

The posts about its total length being too short and its need to have ridiculous conditions to hold up are really off the mark.

I agree that Merion is an inspired course. I disagree about length. In my opinion, the pros simply hit the ball too far for a sub-6,900-yard, par 70 course to hold up barring crazy setup. They hit it too far with their drivers, too accurately with their irons, and are too strong coming out of the rough. The best will simply overpower the course.

Simply my opinion, and I could be wrong. I also disagree that anyone holding anything but the opinion that Merion would be a great test for the pros doesn't understand architecture and "doesn't get it." That's an arrogant, hard-headed way of looking at a purely hypothetical issue.

[Jim Nugent]

Does anyone think that a decision for 2012 may based upon whether Brookline gets the Open in 2013.  From everything I've heard, The Country Club will only host it if if it is scaled back spectatorwise like what we are talking about here.  NO way the USGA will do back to back "non-moneymakers".  One or the other (possibly) but not both......

The USGA can generate the same revenues at Merion -- by doubling ticket prices and raising sponsor/corporate fees.  That is how markets handle reduced supply.  Bet it would work.  

[Kent Salisbury]

The only problem is where do you put those tents at Merion. West Course? Don't really think that corporate sponsers will pay the fee to be that far from the golf course.

Has the USGA ever raised tickets prices for the open where they expected or were required to limit attendees? if so, when? Can't remember recently having to do this.

Plus the more people that can attend the open, the better. Finding courses that can support all the USGA's needs are out there.

[Robert Thompson]

I can't find mention of it here, but didn't David Fay say on the telecast that Merion was worthy of a US Open as a golf course, but wouldn't make it due to logistics?

[TEPaul]

JESII;

Good questions about how the holes play now with some of the new tees. My only real good references seeing it played this week from the NEW new tips are comparing it to seeing guys like Slonis, McDermott and Faldo play it a few years ago from the OLD new tips and seeing the pros play it in the Open in 1981.

#1---a very short hole for the good player. Hurley hit 3 iron SW into a back pin in qualifying.
#2---This is a huge change to me. In the 1981 Open only about three Open competitors all week even tried to hit this green in two and this week with about 20+ yards added to the hole some of the long players were going at it with long irons.
#3---This hole from the new distance is probably harder and more challenging today than it's every been. The green on #3 is probably the most interesting and complex to position a ball on and to putt on any on the entire course.
#4---This hole was the most surprising of all to me. No distance added here but in 1981 this was a virtual unreachable at 597 but this week a lot of players were going at it in two.
#5---This hole from the new tee at 504 just may be one of the hardest par 4s in the entire world and length alone is not the primary reason why. There were very few pars on #5 relatively speaking last week.
#6----I'm not too sure how different #6 is from the new tips at 487 yards. I saw some good drives with long players like Hurley approaching with probably a 9 iron but I saw some long irons and all the way to 3 woods on this one. I also saw a player get almost all the way to the green out of the left fairway bunker.
#7---no change here---the strategy is the same as it's always been----just lay it down there in position and hit some wedge in.
#8---same
#9---At 209 I saw Hurley hit an 8 iron in and Wolstenholme hit a utility wood in.
#10---The match play phase were all hitting either driver or 3 wood right up to just the right of the green, sometimes about 20-30 yards to the right of the front of the green (which has been expanded right bigtime). I forgot that you had to turn the ball a bit around that tree off the tee to get into that position.
#11---basically the same as #7 and #8
#12---They added about 20-30 yards here but the good players who could turn the tee shot right quite a bit coming out of the shoot had as little as PWs or SWs here.
#14----This one surprised me a lot. The longer players still had short irons in here. The real change on this hole is you pretty much need to shape a good long drive right to left some and be damn accurate about it or you can be in real trouble here by leaving it right all along in a postion nearly impossible to get to the green. The entire right of this fairway is now really penal. Molinari hit a world class rocovery out of a right bunker here all the way to the green.
#15---the added length to this hole makes it a fascinating tee shot choice. Those who are long enough and take a driver here need to be very careful because everything necks in fast with OB coming up pretty fast left and tough rough right in front of the last fairway bunker but if they pull it off they only have some kind of a wedge left.
#16---this is the hole that technology and tree clearing has probably weakened most. No tee length addition was possible here and the long player can only hit 3 wood here unless they choose to go right. Hurley did that into the left rough and a PW to the back of the green. Very interestingly some of the stronger players chose to hit driver here part of the way up the "lady's aid" on the right. That leaves you a litttle blind to the green and not that much shorter in but plenty of players did that for some reason.
#17---At 246-250 this #17 par 3 is world-class awesome in its position as second to last for match play golf. I saw all kinds of clubs hit here. I saw some complete disasters here and I saw a few shots at crunch time that had to be some of the best under pressure a few of those players ever hit. The additional length here has worked beautifully and praise needs to go to those who pulled off the job on this tee addition. Few would ever notice how all they did it and that's the point and the reason for praise. Hats off to Tosh Belsinger with the way length was added here.
#18---The new length at 505 is pretty awesome. The good player can't miss the tee shot by much here and even from the fairway whether this green is soft or firm you just have to hit one of your Sunday best approaches to get a decent putt on the third shot.

Sully, having looked at this course all week long every day all day with these good long players I only have three recommendations for Merion East and it's all in fairway expansion on basically only three holes.

I'd recommend that #5 fairway be expanded even more to the right over the right fairway bunker. A long player has to really catch one to carry that bunker from 504 but if they do they should have more fairway on the high right from where an approach to that green is damn near impossible anyway because of the angle and the cant of the green but at least tempt them from fairway from over there rather than totally shut them down where they have to play it like a boring mini par 5.

#14 and #18! This may sound radical but in fact it would be a total fairway restoration with one wrinkle. I'd recommend that the fairway on #14 be taken all the way to Club House Rd the way it once was but I'd put Flynn's proposed bunker right in the crook of the elbow of the dogleg out about 290-310 with fairway right of it, left of it, in front of it and over it. This would be some awesome multi-optional tee shot that would probably be almost too much choice for most players to deal with.

On the other side of the right fairway bunkers on #14 I'd start fairway on #18 about 15 yards from those 14th fairway bunkers and carry it 70-75 yards to the other side all the way over to within about 20 yards of OB. Then I'd remove the last five trees left on top of the quarry and take the remaining definition away from the player on the 18th tee and just let him hit it hard into an enormous cascading fairway. Trying to approach that green from over on the right from fairway is truly out of angle to that green but the player couldn't help but be induced and tempted to go at it full bore which is not really the case with it in rough now. More players would have the opportunity for the truly heroic and also for some real aggressive mistakes into that green from fairway way over there.

But here's the real reason I'd recommend this massive fairway expansion all the way across #18 and all the way across #14 to Club House Rd the way it once was. The way those two narrow strips of fairway on #14 and #18 now look sort of dumb. Can you imagine what that would look like from the clubhouse looking back up that stretch of the course (#14 and #18 with #s 16 green and #17 tee in between)? It would be one of the most awesome sights in all of golf----it would look like a virtual tidal wave of fairway coming at you from the clubhouse and 18th hole! Not a bad counterpoint to the fascinatingly cozy first tee start to Merion East. And it would also be a fairway restoration in a place where it would make real optional sense today!

[T_MacWood]

I'm sure it could handle the US Open from a golfing standpoint, but why would you want to subject this great design to the process? Everyone acknowledges it is great golf course, does it need another US Open to validate its greatness. I'd rather not see an Open Doctor improving another architectural masterpiece.

[Joel_Stewart]

didn't David Fay say on the telecast that Merion was worthy of a US Open as a golf course, but wouldn't make it due to logistics?

I've been to 6 US Opens at different courses (including 1971 at Merion) and Fay is correct.  For a modern US Open, it can't handle the infrustructure.  Even if they built tents on Ardmore Avenue there just isn't enough space for the parking, merchandise tents, corporate tents and TV compound.  

[JSlonis]

TEPaul,

Now you've gone overboard...  With almost 19,000 posts and counting...you may be the only person on earth who would ever mention my name in the same sentence as Faldo's, regardless of the subject.

I can't believe the distances this Hurley kid is hitting it.  9 iron into #6 is insane, 490 yards, slightly uphill. WOW!

[Doug Braunsdorf]

didn't David Fay say on the telecast that Merion was worthy of a US Open as a golf course, but wouldn't make it due to logistics?

I've been to 6 US Opens at different courses (including 1971 at Merion) and Fay is correct.  For a modern US Open, it can't handle the infrustructure.  Even if they built tents on Ardmore Avenue there just isn't enough space for the parking, merchandise tents, corporate tents and TV compound.  

Would space exist perhaps at Haverford?  I'm not extremely well versed in the area, and there would probably be foot-traffic concerns with the folks who live in the immediate area, but I seem to remember seeing some athletic fields or multipurpose fields on the campus a few blocks away.  

This is just from me observing from my car as I drove to Merion.  I may be wrong.  

[TEPaul]

Jamie:

I mention your name (and McDermott's) in the same reference as Faldo's about Merion simply because I think you're honest and realistic about your game and what's going on with architecture and distance and frankly you're consistently about 15+ yards longer than Faldo, and that's relevent to these discussions.

And also Jamie there are some on here who've offered there opinions about Merion comparing these amateurs this week against a potential future Open at Merion who've said the tour pros are maybe 30 yards longer than these top amateurs this week. Those analysts don't seem to realize that's total crap. Some of these amateurs this week are the tour pros of the future and anyone who knows golf understands that these young 20 year old amateurs in the US AM who are the tour pros of the future sure aren't gonna get any longer as they get older. Just ask any of the top tour players in the game today at what time of their lives they could hit the ball farthest (minus technology of course).

[johnk]

TEPaul,

If I'm the "analyst" you are referring to, I do believe (as I said in my post) that the top 20% of tour pros are 30 yards longer than the 4 golfers I watched on Saturday and Sunday.

"anyone who knows golf understands that these young 20 year old amateurs in the US AM who are the tour pros of the future sure aren't gonna get any longer as they get older"

Really?  Even if you discount improving equipment, what is your basis for that statement?

Are 20 yr olds physically mature?  Is Tiger longer today than he was as a 20 year old (discounting improved equipment)? Hard to know, but he probably has about 30lbs more muscle. What about Vijay? Is he stronger?  Is his clubhead speed higher today than when he was 20?  

My point was that there are more pros who are closer to Hurley in length than they are to Molinari. According to your hole by hole above, the longer Ams are playing 9 irons into 480yd+ holes in some cases.  The quarterfinalists, however didn't possess that length.  

The longest 20% of pros do, however.

[ForkaB]

TEP

Has the course been further lengthened from the tips that you and I and Dow and Cirba played in Nov. 2001?  If so, where?

Thanks in advance.

Rich

[TEPaul]

JohnK:

About the length of professionals the one on here I think tells it best is JESII. He played professional golf on some of the tours and made an interesting observation about length on the various tours. Another way to tell about relative length at the US Amateur would be to ask the tech center guy who tracked the data during the practice rounds of the amateur at Merion and the Open at Shinnecock.

Rich:

Since you saw Merion they added more length on, #2, #5, #6, #9, #12, #14, #15, #17, #18. At this point I'd say the course is pretty well maxed out.

Tom MacW:

If Merion East did hold another Open I doubt the club or the USGA would think to bring in some "Open Doctor". The reason is no one thinks it's necessary to do anything to the course other than perhaps maintenance practices to improve its firmness and playability. The course did require some capital improvement starting almost fifteen years ago but basically all that's been done now. It's not necessary to do anything more to it. I would love to see a few of those fairways expanded back near original though (ex #14 and #18) but I doubt they'll do that perhaps thinking it will make those two holes easier.  

[mike_malone]

 There just seems to be too many wedges from 7 thru 13. Although I love  #3,#5 , #16, and #18 , it is not enough.

   I think they have gotten all the distance they can; correct me if I am wrong about that.

     If they are forced to soften #5 , #12, and #15 then they lose some of the charm in my mind.


     Seven or eight years from now those 500 yard par fours will be 2 to 3 clubs less.



      Merion is a relic of the past. It is a beauty of a relic, but the problems of logistics beyond the course can not be overcome by the course.

[TEPaul]

Mayday:

#7-#13 is the so-called (and famous) "short stretch" at Merion which makes up the "middle set" in the course's fascinating routing. On those par 4s other than a little length added to #10 and #12 it's never been possible to add length in that section of super short par 4s. They've always been wedge approaches. I think good players have always felt they pretty much need to make some birdies in that stretch (the fascination of the routing as they try to recoop in that "short stretch" from losing strokes on the first six or to get ready for the difficult last six).

When we discussed the length issue with Nick Faldo after the one and only round he ever played there he said he thought Merion had some of the best long par 4s but that it also had some of the best really short par 4s (the "short stretch"). When he was asked how he thought tour pros would do on the course he said; "Where did you see me make my mistakes today?"