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George Pazin

  • Total Karma: 0
Re: The Case for Ignoring Skilled Golfer’s Tee Sho
« Reply #75 on: June 04, 2003, 06:11:01 AM »
One minor quibble, Huckster.

I don't think the person 80 yards out should be clearly better off - it's doubt that makes any short par 4 work. If that person is clearly better off, the hole becomes more boring - something akin to the alternate fairway on the 8th at Riviera, for the big boys, anyway.

How big is that tree? Is it more of a visual impediment than an actual one?

Note: clearly is my wording, not yours. I think you guys are just padding your posting stats. :)
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:06 PM by -1 »
Big drivers and hot balls are the product of golf course design that rewards the hit one far then hit one high strategy.  Shinny showed everyone how to take care of this whole technology dilemma. - Pat Brockwell, 6/24/04

THuckaby2

Re: The Case for Ignoring Skilled Golfer’s Tee Sho
« Reply #76 on: June 04, 2003, 06:22:01 AM »
Gotcha, George.  That is actually a damn fine distinction.  If one was clearly better 80 yards back, then the choice would be very obvious and the hole would be quite boring... good point.

Let me make one thing clear - I like this golf hole a lot and would LOVE to play it on a daily basis!  It's a fun tee shot and a fun 2nd regardless of one's result.  My only take here is that the green is so severe, I don't understand the benefit of laying back... thus for those who can make the carry, I don't understand why they wouldn't try.  Likely David M. or David K. or Tommy could explain this, and I know they have tried, I just must be sorta thick on this one.  I don't get it yet.

And even if I don't ever understand it, hell I'll chalk it up like I do #11 - a hole I can't figure out the best line on, and love it just for that fact!

TH
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Mike_Cirba

Re: The Case for Ignoring Skilled Golfer’s Tee Sho
« Reply #77 on: June 04, 2003, 06:44:59 AM »

Quote
Great pics - thanks, Dave!

My best - and really only - shot (given my sometimes Cirbanian chipping game these days, particularly off tight lies) was a putt.  I did pretty well to get it to 15 feet.

TH

Huckaby...I've been BUSY at work, but don't think you were going to slip this insult past me.  It may be TRUE, and irrefutable, and cast in stone, but it's still insulting.  ;) ;D

Actually, I'm kind of hoping it becomes an addition to the lexicon of the game...however ingominous.   :-/ ;D
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

THuckaby2

Re: The Case for Ignoring Skilled Golfer’s Tee Sho
« Reply #78 on: June 04, 2003, 06:51:00 AM »
Mike - I was SO hoping you would see that.  Hey, I've never seen you screw up chips any worse than any of the rest of us... I just refer back to your own description of the round at Pine Valley, a shot on #7 at Pacific Dunes, etc.

You did need a word coined for you, in any case.  You deserve this honor, one that Dan Kelly bestowed on me with "Huckabite" awhile back...   ;D ;D ;D

TH
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:06 PM by -1 »

Mike_Cirba

Re: The Case for Ignoring Skilled Golfer’s Tee Sho
« Reply #79 on: June 04, 2003, 07:04:32 AM »
Tom;

Somewhat amazingly, at least until I now publicly pronounce this and jinx myself, my chipping and short game has been reasonable and even decent over the past year or so.  But, it's all built on a house of cards of confidence that could crumble with the next gust of wind, or stubbed turf, or bladed cut shot, or lovely lateral.

Just ask Matt Ward, GeoffreyC, and Patrick Mucci, who witnessed my Cirbanian short game catastrophe one hot summer afternoon at Garden City.  I caught Tom Paul looking away in disdain as I chipped.  Redanman is encouraging, and while he has the soft hands of a surgeon, he calls me Roberto Duran (Hands of Stone).  Patrick wanted to bring my wedge to St. Patrick's Cathedral and have an exorcism performed.    

"Chip Yips" only begins to describe it.

Forget double hitting...I was in danger of triple hittting the ball due to my "smmooootthh" move.

On the 16th at Pine Valley, from about 20 yards short of the green, Rocky hands me my putter and says, "Here you go pro...I've seen your chipping motion."

Guilty, as charged.  ;D
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

THuckaby2

Re: The Case for Ignoring Skilled Golfer’s Tee Sho
« Reply #80 on: June 04, 2003, 07:16:07 AM »
Great stuff, Mike - and good to hear things have turned in the proper direction.  I'm tempted to point a certain other regular here to this post as a lesson in self-deprecating humor, but that is way beneath my dignity.   ;) ;)

TH
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Andy_Lipschultz

Re: The Case for Ignoring Skilled Golfer’s Tee Sho
« Reply #81 on: June 04, 2003, 07:37:32 AM »
George: The pepper tree in front of the tee on RC12 is about 40 feet.

Dave: Your last picture starts to give everyone an idea what the green is like, though, does not truly show what a difficult shot the approach is.

Aside from the merits (or lack) of the tee shot on 3,9,10 and 12, there are still some unquestionably tougher tee shots: 7,11,13 (the pot bunker in the middle takes away the width) 14, 16, 18.

And lastly, how many of you have made par on #2 when driving to the right side of the fairway? Actually, a better question would be, how many hold the green with their approach from the right?

« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

THuckaby2

Re: The Case for Ignoring Skilled Golfer’s Tee Sho
« Reply #82 on: June 04, 2003, 07:44:49 AM »
It's funny how the memory plays tricks... I didn't even remember that tree existing!  I either went to the right of it or over it, I don't recall, and I don't remember it much from my first-time cart tour either... Playing the hole, I just don't remember it being a factor whatsoever in the tee shot... is it?  It's likely I have this completely wrong.

BTW, 16 is one HELL of a tough tee shot from the back tee..  long carry, bite off as much as you can chew, definite benefit to taking the risk and going far left... and what's even cooler is the middle tee is across the ravine, giving a totally different angle, making a straight shortish hole out of it for those who play that tee, which is appropriate given most who would play that tee can't make the carry or at least shouldn't try... this seems simple, but also creates a very fun shot from that tee for the low 'capper if he chooses to move up, given he can play a slinging draw off the right side and get a lot of yardage out of it, leaving an uphill pitch for his second into yet another genius green.... but don't go too far left or the gunch catches it....

TH


« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

George Pazin

  • Total Karma: 0
Re: The Case for Ignoring Skilled Golfer’s Tee Sho
« Reply #83 on: June 04, 2003, 08:52:38 AM »

Quote
Let me make one thing clear - I like this golf hole a lot and would LOVE to play it on a daily basis!  It's a fun tee shot and a fun 2nd regardless of one's result.  My only take here is that the green is so severe, I don't understand the benefit of laying back... thus for those who can make the carry, I don't understand why they wouldn't try.

Never doubted the first part of this for a second.

As to the latter part, it reminds me of a comment I recall Tom D making on this site that was very telling. He stated that most alternate fairways don't work because the choice is so clear cut for most golfers that there's not much thought involved. Similarly, diagonal hazards don't generally pose as much interest to a better golfer because he gives it a wide berth to allow for error.

Kinda makes me respect architects all that much more...not quite as easy as we armchair geniuses make it out to be!
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
Big drivers and hot balls are the product of golf course design that rewards the hit one far then hit one high strategy.  Shinny showed everyone how to take care of this whole technology dilemma. - Pat Brockwell, 6/24/04

THuckaby2

Re: The Case for Ignoring Skilled Golfer’s Tee Sho
« Reply #84 on: June 04, 2003, 09:00:05 AM »
Excellent stuff, George - more food for thought most definitely.  Hell yes this stuff ain't easy... Tom Doak's comments are telling without a doubt.  Jeez, the more I think about it, the more holes like 11 and 12 at Rustic exhibit this.

Here's another thought:  imagine how guys like Doak, Hanse, etc. both laugh at our "critiques" and cringe as we misapply them.  One would have to have a thick skin to be a golf course architect, something that seems so simple to the unitiated but really must be so hard once you actually do it.

So ok, brass tacks re #12 at Rustic:  does one figure out more upon repeat playings, or is it ALWAYS going to be a mystery?  Same question goes for #11, really.

To me a hole that can never be completely figured out has got to be at the absolute topmost echelon of golf holes on the planet.  Do these two belong in such?  I sure as heck didn't coming away thinking that upon my two tours, but I am ready to be convinced now.

TH
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Andy_Lipschultz

Re: The Case for Ignoring Skilled Golfer’s Tee Sho
« Reply #85 on: June 04, 2003, 09:17:29 AM »

Quote
So ok, brass tacks re #12 at Rustic:  does one figure out more upon repeat playings, or is it ALWAYS going to be a mystery?  Same question goes for #11, really.

For me 12 is not a mystery. What is a mystery is if I'm going to execute the shot. Fromthe blue tees; I hit a 4-metal to the right of the bunker. If I pull it off, I make no worse than par. Playing from the black screws me, since I hit a low driver and couldn't hit the green unless the flagstick slowed it down.

If my approach on 11 is to the wrong side of the green, I know I'll be lucky to not 3-putt the hole.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Tommy_Naccarato

Re: The Case for Ignoring Skilled Golfer’s Tee Sho
« Reply #86 on: June 04, 2003, 10:19:04 AM »
Tom, Your saving yourself.....But, I think you owe it to yourself, and everyone here to really say what you mean without fear of being attacked or belittled.

It's only discussion group, and its about discussing golf architecture, and even I will admit a bit of sensitivity of taking things a bit too serious, but some time away always helps clear things a bit. No matter if it is four days or forty.

It helps clear all of your perspective.

Like David M. and Tim Weiman, I think that this discussion is good for all, because it makes you analyze the topic of discussion even more.

Long ago, I came to conclusions of the 12th, and that it's going to continue to make any golfer that plays it, humble time after time he plays it. The simple The more you play it the more you come to respect it sentence applies to this hole. The hole was designed to be subtle. It is more different then anything anyone has seen in all of Golf, not just in California, and until you really get into it and study it a bit more then one round and drive-by, you will still maintain that it isn't really that hard of a golf hole.

It is however painfully obvious you didn't play the very back tees--where most "SKILLED" golfers play

I can't begin to tell you how many times I have hit huge drives to the right, and then was "forced" to see my favorite shot--the bump & running 8 iron; end-up turning hard right and roll of the side of the green, continuing running until it was in the very back of the close-cropped approach area. I have even hit the same flopped wedges and nine-irons and have witnessed the same result. I have chanced it from the tee to the left, and have had every form of shot fro that side too, and while I think it is a much better angle to come in at in relation to the green, it is, for me, a much harder shot to any placment on the green. Depending on how I feel that day, I'll decide on the tee which way I'm going, because I'm always searching for the best possible attack. I have seen more shots from every caliber of player, just off of the green, or in the middle of the close-cropped approach laying directly with-in reach of Eagle Two, and the player has walked off the green with a four or even a five. I have seen easy par's become even easier double bogies. The hole doesn't let-up one ounce, because it succeeds in making seemingly easy shots hard, and the hard shots even harder, and this is on a hole that is a mere 310 yards in length--downhill, with all the subtle contours, but into the prevailing wind. (What a refreshing thought that all of this "skilled golfer" talk ends-up with Nature's Elements being the ultimate aid in defense! It's as some of you have no humility to the game what-so-ever.)

The 12th hole defends itself beautifully in the truest sense of the word "GOLF", simply because of the mystery and the controversy that goes with it, and until you get more round under your belt on that hole, or at least make an honest effort to give the hole some study by taking more then the time to play it--this should only add interest into what your NOT seeing, considering how your opinion has changed since you last played it. (In October)

Another thing is that for an honest, really eye-opening view of the 12th, I can only suggest a trip up to the top of the hill, looking down upon the entire hole, and seeing people of all calibers of skill and handicap play the hole. Dick Daley has been up there, so has Tony Ristola. It will not only completely awaken you to the mysteries of the 12th by allowing you to see all of the subtle contour and live 3-D/High Definition/Orthagraphic view of why the hole is subtle genius.

So Tom, that is my honest take. And trust me, it isn't picking on you or your character. Tell us what you really think. No patronizing for the sake of harmony is needed. Let er' rip! I promise you that you won't be altering or affecting any internet friendship.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

THuckaby2

Re: The Case for Ignoring Skilled Golfer’s Tee Sho
« Reply #87 on: June 04, 2003, 10:19:46 AM »
Interesting, Andy.  Your approach on each makes great sense to me.  I wonder what the take will be from other regulars there...

Re #11, I had a long discussion with Dave Moriarty a long time ago where I was pissed I wasn't rewarded for pulling off for me a very tough shot - a draw hugging the left side - the angle in was no better from that side, or so I thought.  Dave tried to explain things to me but dense me I never got it... To me this difficulty to ascertain the proper angle in is a positive... Or am I making way too much out of #11 also?

TH
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

JakaB

Re: The Case for Ignoring Skilled Golfer’s Tee Sho
« Reply #88 on: June 04, 2003, 12:33:11 PM »
Huck,

I agree with Tommy....you are too stupid and have not studied enough great courses...specifically Rustic Canyon...to ever know if an architectural feature...."is more different than anything anyone has ever seen in golf"...please restrict all future opinions until you learn what the hell you are talking about....nothing personal.

I might erase this post after I pull Tommy's hyperbole out of my ass....How can anyone that takes themselves seriously play this course after reading such a load of crap as gospel...I honestly believe this over the top glorification is only hurting the course and its architects....and really pissing me off.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

DMoriarty

Re: The Case for Ignoring Skilled Golfer’s Tee Sho
« Reply #89 on: June 04, 2003, 12:39:24 PM »
JakaB, I tried to be fair with the pictures, but they definitely dont do justice to the feel of the hole, which is dominated by the expansive fairway, seemingly as wide as a football field is long.   I dont have any pictures that capture that.  The pictures I posted focused more on the going for the green option.  From the tee much of the trouble I've pictured is dwarfed by the huge fairway and hidden by the tree.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

THuckaby2

Re: The Case for Ignoring Skilled Golfer’s Tee Sho
« Reply #90 on: June 04, 2003, 12:55:33 PM »
Tommy:

I respect your take.  Just bear with me a bit:  you guys tore me a new ass pretty bad the last time we "discussed" Rustic and you can't deny there were some pretty bad feelings.  In time I shall get over it, but that time hasn't arrived yet.

What astounds me is that you guys care about my lame-ass opinion this much... how many times do I have to say I'd rather not discuss something before you let me go?

Friendship remains way more important to me than discussing golf course architecture.  Why this is difficult for you guys to understand remains very curious to me... can you not just respect my take here and leave it be?  Just do let me clarify also that my concern is not what you think of me - I surely cannot control that - my concern is what I think of you.  More crap like the last time, and it makes it difficult for me to continue to fine feeling we seem to have right now.  That's the last I'm going to say on this issue - it should be obvious, but somehow it isn't - so I suppose this needs to be made clear.  My apologies for what might seem like hypersensitivity, and yes, after all this is just a discussion group, but the people I meet through it and the relationships I have developed remain a very positive thing, one I'd like to keep.

One thing in any case, to sorta clear my name:  I did play the back-most tees that were set out on #12.  I don't think it was 340, but what the hell the next set up is 335... I don't think I played it any shorter than 335.  Not that such matters, but since you questioned me I would like the world to know I know which tees to play.  My recollection is I got my tee shot to 10-20 yards short and right.  I did putt from there.  You can choose to believe this, or call me a liar.

I also would have you note I have "studied" that golf hole more than any other in recent memory, through conversations here and due to the fact Rustic is the ONE SINGLE ONLY course I have toured without playing that I can remember, ever.  That is not my standard thing, playing is what I do.  So if I haven't studied it enough for your liking, well... it's the most I'm ever going to do for any golf hole.

Beyond all this, I absolutely respect your opinion on #12 and you know what?  I agree with every word you say.  If you had read all these threads, this would not surprise you - but that's cool, I don't expect you to wade through all the crap.

I love #12.  I'd like to play it every day, learn it more and more.  I don't think I ever gave a take any different from this... I did say the green remains so brutal in my mind that it really doesn't matter WHERE the second comes in from, it's always gonna be so tough that closer is just gonna mean better no matter what... but that doesn't at all imply that I don't think it's a great golf hole - it is!  And one thing's for sure, I NEVER said it's not that hard of a golf hole... maybe I did a year ago when we talked about this the first time, I don't know, but I sure as hell didn't now.  It's a little bitch and that's my entire point!

The bottom line is we remain simpatico, as I told you on the phone recently.  I kinda wish you would have addressed this with me on the phone as I gather you did with Mr. Wigler recently, but that's ok, I'm sure you have your reasons for posting this here.  Thus I respond here.  Again, apologies to all whom are offended by this kind of personal give and take.

Your amigo,

TH

« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:06 PM by -1 »

Dan Kelly

  • Total Karma: 0
Re: The Case for Ignoring Skilled Golfer’s Tee Sho
« Reply #91 on: June 04, 2003, 01:30:27 PM »
Does Dr. Katz do group therapy?  :-*
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
"There's no money in doing less." -- Joe Hancock, 11/25/2010
"Rankings are silly and subjective..." -- Tom Doak, 3/12/2016

THuckaby2

Re: The Case for Ignoring Skilled Golfer’s Tee Sho
« Reply #92 on: June 04, 2003, 01:31:53 PM »
Do let me know if so, Dan.  I know some guys who need it.   ;) ;) ;)

TH
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

DMoriarty

Re: The Case for Ignoring Skilled Golfer’s Tee Sho
« Reply #93 on: June 04, 2003, 01:33:00 PM »
Quote
My only take here is that the green is so severe, I don't understand the benefit of laying back... thus for those who can make the carry, I don't understand why they wouldn't try.

It doesnt sound like there would be any benefit to laying back (or rather laying right), compared to where you hit your drive.  Just hit it there every time and you will make your share of birdies.  The trick is getting it there without going left, short, or long.  

I'm probably saying more about my eating habits than I am the course, but I tend break the strategy down on this hole into pieces of pie, with the points of the pieces at the left side of the green, and with some providing more forgiveness to certain pins.  The closer you are to the green, the less margin you have for error.

It sounds to me that you ended up in the ideal piece, or maybe just short of it. But a little shorter or longer or left, and you may have had a much more difficult shot.  It is much easier to get in the right piece of pie eighty yards out than ten.  

More low quality pictures.

This guy's drive (from the up tee) hit just short of green and rolled quickly on a line about 2 ft. above the pin, and down the back to the edge of the fringe.  He eventually sunk a 6 footer for par:
 

This guy laid back short and left, leaving himself with a very difficult angle, with bunkers front and the green running directly away:


These guys are coming in from the right, about even with the green, probably about 80-100 yds out.  The apron short of the green (these golfers' left) provides sort of an bank, which releases the ball to these golfers' right.  From this angle one can hit tit short right and have it kick up and right onto the front right portion of the green, or longer right and have it run up and right onto the back portion of he green.  If you try to hit it from here at the center of the green, your ball may end up going straight right, down the bank:
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:06 PM by -1 »

THuckaby2

Re: The Case for Ignoring Skilled Golfer’s Tee Sho
« Reply #94 on: June 04, 2003, 01:43:29 PM »
FANTASTIC STUFF - thanks, David!

Now this is educational.  I am "getting" this a bit more and more...

So a key element we hadn't address is that the place I got to is hard to reach, while 80 yards back is easy, right?  I get that.  I don't get many chances to get close to a green on a par 4, so it was damn the torpedos for me, I was never gonna go right (same goes for 3 and 7)... but I can see that in competition - or if one REALLY is focusing on score - that would be the smart play.  Left is not a happy place.

My only issue here is that damn, I still had a very tough shot from where I was.  That's what's making me think there is NO good way to enter that green... so yes, a conservative safe play remains going into the right slice of the pie, leaving the 80-100 yard pitch in... I get that....

I'm still stuck on the thought though that given there is really NO good way in, why not just go for it, assuming one wants to take a little risk - with the thought being that because of that, closer is always gonna be better?

Maybe this makes no sense, I am likely explaining this very poorly.

And again, please do realize the less I can figure out the golf hole, the greater it is in my book (like #11)!

TH
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

THuckaby2

Re: The Case for Ignoring Skilled Golfer’s Tee Sho
« Reply #95 on: June 04, 2003, 01:50:04 PM »

Quote


I'm probably saying more about my eating habits than I am the course, but I tend break the strategy down on this hole into pieces of pie, with the points of the pieces at the left side of the green, and with some providing more forgiveness to certain pins.  The closer you are to the green, the less margin you have for error.

It sounds to me that you ended up in the ideal piece, or maybe just short of it. But a little shorter or longer or left, and you may have had a much more difficult shot.  It is much easier to get in the right piece of pie eighty yards out than ten

David - just to clarify - these are the parts I still don't "get."  And it's likely just my confusion more than anything else... I've never hit the shit from 80 yards, just watched my Dad (whilst playing) and a couple other guys (my cart tour day) butcher it, and given the severity of the green I'm still having a hard time grasping why the shot has more margin for error from back there then from right up close.  I'm sure you have it correct... just help me understand this a bit better.  Thanks.

TH
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Tommy_Naccarato

Re: The Case for Ignoring Skilled Golfer’s Tee Sho
« Reply #96 on: June 04, 2003, 02:06:58 PM »
John, I love pissing you off! Its at that point your at your most creative at making both you and I look like total asses.

I know the answer for redemption though. I'm going to make it a point to play Victoria National and see all of the Ken Kavanaugh courses I can. I'll take a ton of pictures, spout my usual drivel, even take a few images from a cart and even from the inside of a car, post them so everyone can see how classy the bunkering is.

Only then will I be able to get on your good side.....

I'll do it!
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

DMoriarty

Re: The Case for Ignoring Skilled Golfer’s Tee Sho
« Reply #97 on: June 04, 2003, 02:10:13 PM »

Quote
I'm still having a hard time grasping why the shot has more margin for error from back there then from right up close. .
As I said above, it is much better to be 10 yds right of the green than 80 yds right of the green.  I am sure your putt onto the green was much easier than a lob wedge or run up from 80 yds.  I'd hit it there every time, if I could.

  Your ball must have stopped on a downslope in just about the perfect place.  That being said, I think you may be overestimating the ease of consistently driving that ball to that exact spot.  A slightly different wind, bounce, swing, or turf condition, and you could have been well past (once it gets on the apron it really rolls) or short enough to take the putt away, and replace it with a very delicate pitch.

That is why it seems safer to me to challenge the bunkers, gunk, and slope from 80 yds sideways, rather than 310 yds straight downhill.  [Plus, I think you have a better chance of getting to certain pins.]  

Tom, imagine if you had played the back tee and your ball had stopped 30-40 yds short on the same line.  Would you rather be there than 80 yds right of the green.  If so, why?  
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

DMoriarty

Re: The Case for Ignoring Skilled Golfer’s Tee Sho
« Reply #98 on: June 04, 2003, 02:21:30 PM »
Tom didnt see your comment to Tommy that you played as far back as they had them.  I thought you had said you played the blues.  My mistake.  So suppose you missed it slightly and it ended 40 yds back on the same line.

I also didnt see the first post of your two in a row:

TH said:
Quote
My only issue here is that damn, I still had a very tough shot from where I was.  That's what's making me think there is NO good way to enter that green

Okay, now I understand that you weren't next to the green but maybe 20 yrds short.  You must have been just far enough right to take the bunker out of your putting line (the value of going right).   Had you hit it 20-25 yds further, so you werent putting down canyon but across or barely up canyon, it becomes a much easier to putt to the top part of the green, with experience.  Just feed it up the left side (putters' left) and let it feed down canyon.  As for the portion of the green long right (from the tee) you are dead if you leave your ball where you left your tee shot.

« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:06 PM by -1 »

THuckaby2

Re: The Case for Ignoring Skilled Golfer’s Tee Sho
« Reply #99 on: June 04, 2003, 02:28:30 PM »
David:

Muchas gracias.  My understanding continues to grow.  

So it is a matter of where one can get to, and making the proper choices.  NOW we are getting somewhere.  Risk/reward, more or less.  It's not worth it to try to get to where I got, because the shot is no easier.  That I get.  Yes, 80 yards back in the fairway is a hell of a lot better than 40 yards in the gunk.

My problem still remains the severity of the green.  Ok, I guess I did play a bit up - just do realize I did play the back-most markers that were available that day, it it sure as hell wasn't that far up from the back of the tee "pad" by my recollection - in any case it did seem to me to be a fairly comfortable tee shot.. I wasn't trembling that I'd hit the tree, or hit it in the gunk, because a) the carry didn't look that far; and b) the miss was SO EASY on the right - that area is gigantic - that if one just guarded against a hook, it was a pretty high percentage shot.  Again, easy for me to say as a left to righter... but still, a player who can easily draw the ball just starts it way out in the fairway and draws it back, so that's not that big of a deal either.

Whew.  That's a lot of words.

But back to my point:  I still see the tee shot here as "lose/lose".  That is, hit it out the right, damn hard shot in.  Take the risk and get it to where I got it - damn hard shot in.  The smarter player in this scenario might play the percentages, ie just punt, hit the easiest shot given there is so little reward to be gained... The what the heck player in that scenario just says damn the torpedoes and goes for it, because it seemingly doesn't matter where the ball ends up.

Of course the scenarios are different for the really big hittters who can actually reach the green, but that is a tiny minority and while they do matter, that's not what I'm talking about here.  I gather you're going to get another demonstration of that on June 16 anyway.   ;)

No, I'm talking about is everyone else.  What is really there to make the rest of us NOT just take the most aggressive line we can comfortably take?

Again, these are all just questions.  It should be taken as a given by now, but I just want to make sure you know I am ASKING, not trying to put forth some agenda.  You guys know the hole way way way better than I do, that's for sure.

TH

ps - our posts crossed.  No hassles re tees - I did play generally blues - blacks weren't out that day and I didn't want to make waves.  Where I could I played black.  Blues are plenty long for me anyway - remember I do NOT consider myself the "skilled golfer" discussed in other threads.  You've seen me play enough to know that!

pss - yes, the bunker was not an issue or else I sure wouldnt; have putted.  I really think we had a back right pin.  I aimed at it, just punted and let the slope of the knob take it left, figuring I could sit there all day and never get it close to that pin.

« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:06 PM by -1 »