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Kyle Harris

There's a darn good golf course under there... Cobb's Creek
« on: August 28, 2005, 07:13:34 PM »
This past Wednesday I had the bittersweet pleasure of playing Cobb's Creek Olde for the first time. Cobb's Creek's pedigree is of the Hugh Wilson lineage (Mike Cirba tells me that 12 of the holes can be attributed to Wilson). It was fascinating to walk Merion one day, and then play Cobb's the next and see what comparisons could be drawn. Hopefully, Cory will post some of the pictures he took.

There were several. First off, Cobb's has an excellent back nine and several of the holes on the front are just the right type of quirky to be fun. I actually found fault with only two holes in the design, the first and the eighth: both are fairly simple. The 2nd Hole is a great short par four with a green that reminded me in appearance of Merion's 16th ,with a steep false front. The 3rd hole is a superb par four that I believe may have been converted from the original par 3 12th. The green is somewhat like the 11th at Merion with the creek, however, the hole itself is much shorter. The par threes on the front are both superb, with a mid-iron shot being needed on the 4th, and a wedge to the 6th. Between them, the par 4 5th is the ultimate in quirk with a creek running up the middle of the hole and to the left of the green. The strategy is similar to that of the 13th at Bethpage, with one side of the creek being favored over the other. 7 is a good three shot hole that features a green with a Redan shoulder and a sharp right to left bank in the fairway. The nine finishes with the short uphill ninth that is drivable with a well struck shot.

The back nine is superb, with a short opener and then the course starts swinging. The long 11th is a great tee shot and a difficult approach, same with 12, with a pronounced dip in front of the green that must again be traveresed on the tee shot on 13. The long, downhill, par 5 14th is a 600 yard proposition with a tight tee shot and premium placed on the second shot and approach. 15 goes back up the hill with a green perched high above the 14th fairway. 16, 17 and 18 feature two short par 4s and an excellent drop shot par 3 with both fours being right on the cusp of drivability. All told, the back nine measures a stout 3400 yards from testosterone national.

This golf course needs some love, and should get some love. I feel Geoff Shackelford was right when he said that putting some USGA money into the golf course would be a good thing.

Doug Braunsdorf

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Re:There's a darn good golf course under there... Cobb's Creek
« Reply #1 on: August 28, 2005, 08:43:06 PM »
Kyle, Good post.  That was a fun day--thank you, to Steve and Cory for setting it up/joining us.  
I agree with Kyle-there are a few good holes there.  To say conditions are "scruffy" is being generous, but there are possibilities.  Two basic settings for holes--those in the "lower" part of the property routed around or across the Cobb's Creek, and the holes that climb, descend, or tack back and forth across the hill(s) on the property.  

From what I understand, the jury's still out on the Hugh Wilson connection--e.g. no hard evidence, but there are a number of features that had to have been designed by someone with a knowledge of golf architecture.  

I didn't think #1 was necessarily bad, just ill-defined in its current state.  A more clear delineation between "fairway" and "rough" would improve this.  I kind  like the Cobb's Creek at 230 yards out--it provides a challenge for golfers to either lay back or try to fly it.  Green fairly pedestrian.  

#2 was good as well--par 4 of about 365/370, creek at about 270 or so if I recall correctly.  Good green site.  

#3 is a rather short par 4 currently; I think we all played it with mid iron tee shots.  I would be interested to discuss possible bunkers on the inside of the dogleg--there is a natural ridge there, perhaps directing play to the outside of the dogleg.  I would also have widended the fairway to the left, which is the best line into the green.  That was about where Kyle and Steve were with tee shots.  From the middle of the fairway, where I was, I could see the optimal angle was from the left side of the fairway.  Not that that's a problem!  

#4 was interesting as well.  175-ish par 3.  Many stone walls reinforcing the land in this part of the course--how much does the creek rise and fall annually?  
I'd be interested further in the history of these said walls.  

#5 was great.  Mid-length par 4, creek running the length right down the middle of the hole!  Unfortunately, the trees ideally removed are the larger, specimen ones, although they do direct play to the left fairway.  The right fairway is equally good, although it's not maintained as fairway, it provides a look straight at the green.  

#6 a little choked with trees, but it's a short par 3.  Could be improved with tree removal and a relocated tee box.  

#7 a good long 4/short 5 par, with green set at an angle to the line of play.  

#8 rather pedestrian flat par 3 of about 190, but dangerous, what with the driving range hard left!  

#9 a short 4 uphill--driveable.  18th/19th century crackhouse/opium den (actually, structure probably dating from late 1800's/early 20th century, now a graffitti art gallery) to the right of the fairway, not in play.  9 starts the climb up a hill that most of the back nine plays across.  

#10 a short 4 uphill as well--presence of mounds framing the fairway is interesting.  Not seen on other holes.  Also more bunkering surrounding this green front and rear.

#11 is a moderate, narrow par 4 hard by West Philly apartments.  Watch your wallet!   ;D

#12 a great green complex on this mid-length par 4, rather like a redan.  Fairway begins to sweep right to left about 150 out.  Green is situated effortlessly on the hill, and good bunkering with it, although unkempt.  Cory hit a great iron that swept right to left across the green surface.  
Kyle, "Aflac!" and "A banana makes no noise...you're lucky"  ;)

#13, short par 4, drive across a small depression.  

#14, LONG par five, downhill.  Some great shots all around on this hole!  Great par by Steve here!  

#15, interesting 4 uphill.  Tee is set adjacent to aforementioned 'crackhouse' and #9 fairway.  Claustrophobic tee shot, and a difficult approach--green is set at an angle to the line of play on the side of the hill.  Interesting thing here is the presence of several "strip" bunker footprints about 300 yards out, to the sides of the right fairway, at a slight diagonal to the fairway, but not in play.  I wonder if this green was approached from a different angle at one time.  

#16 a good, short par 4 on top of the hill.  Left to right orientation to the hole and fairway, also features a bunker footprint to the outside of the dogleg.  In this case, sand should probably be flashed up.  
Location of #11 green to #16 green is deceiving in a good way on the tee shot--the golfer sees a flag in the distance and may play on that line, which is actually the wrong line for the hole, and leads one to the vicinity of the left bunker.  

#17 a great par 3.  Green with great back to front contour, and large bunkers.  A little out of character with other holes, but design of green makes one think of possibilities.

#18, a shortish downhill par 4.  Blind tee shot and views of West Philly, professional sports stadiums and oil refinery.  
Green is very interesting--it sits on the land extremely effortlessly in a manner I would associate with William Flynn.  Good slope in this green.  
« Last Edit: August 28, 2005, 08:52:35 PM by Douglas R. Braunsdorf »
"Never approach a bull from the front, a horse from the rear, or a fool from any direction."

Craig_Rokke

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Re:There's a darn good golf course under there... Cobb's Creek
« Reply #2 on: August 28, 2005, 09:41:05 PM »
Haven't played Cobbs for about 7 years, but I aim to remedy that later in the fall.

I had heard that Hanse was doing some work there recently. Does anyone know the scope of it? (It sounds like the course
hasn't changed much!)

Kyle Harris

Re:There's a darn good golf course under there... Cobb's Creek
« Reply #3 on: August 28, 2005, 09:56:08 PM »
Craig,

Hanse dug out some of the bunkers as far as we know. Steve Shaffer is the man to ask for specifics. I must warn you, the greens were furry and sandy, and it's VERY rough around the edges. But still enjoyable.

Steve_ Shaffer

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Re:There's a darn good golf course under there... Cobb's Creek
« Reply #4 on: August 28, 2005, 10:05:50 PM »
I don't think the pics I posted from my previous visit in 2003 are still available here. I found the bunkers in better condition, for the most part,than 2 years ago. Gil Hanse did do some work last year and this spring due to the heavy rains/flooding that occured last year in the lower holes- 4,5 &6. Many greens have been regrassed and are hairy.The 17th hole is closed. The short holes are fun and the back 9 has some teeth- 11@431y;12@440y;13@377y;14@614y& 15@447y.The course is fun to play but needs an infusion of money. I'm planning on writing a letter to David Fay at the USGA about this tragedy that continues at Cobbs Creek.
« Last Edit: August 28, 2005, 10:06:18 PM by Steve_ Shaffer »
"Some of us worship in churches, some in synagogues, some on golf courses ... "  Adlai Stevenson
Hyman Roth to Michael Corleone: "We're bigger than US Steel."
Ben Hogan “The most important shot in golf is the next one”

Cory Lewis

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Re:There's a darn good golf course under there... Cobb's Creek
« Reply #5 on: August 29, 2005, 07:17:15 AM »
I'll post the pictures I took soon, hopefully tonight sometime
Instagram: @2000golfcourses
http://2000golfcourses.blogspot.com

Cory Lewis

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Re:There's a darn good golf course under there... Cobb's Creek
« Reply #6 on: August 30, 2005, 03:19:34 PM »
As promised here are some images of Cobb's Creek.


#3, Steve referred to this hole as the Poor Man's version of the 11th at Merion


The second hole, a very good short par 4 that could really be made great by restoring this bunker and the already impressive contours on the green


Just an example of the type of scenery you see at Cobb's Creek


Kyle tees off on one of the strangest Par 3's I've ever seen, it's only 120 yards, but a large tree overhangs the right side, meaning you have to try and cut a pitching wedge over a creek and onto the green
« Last Edit: September 03, 2005, 03:53:16 PM by Cory Lewis »
Instagram: @2000golfcourses
http://2000golfcourses.blogspot.com

Kyle Harris

Re:There's a darn good golf course under there... Cobb's Creek
« Reply #7 on: August 30, 2005, 09:52:32 PM »
Wow, my first ass pic on GCA... and I look fat  ;D

I believe that the tee for that par 3 was actually back and to the left on a little penninsula that has since overgrown. That would take the tall tree out of play (it's thick enough to imply that it's been there for awhile, maybe since the course opened).

Michael Goody

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Re:There's a darn good golf course under there... Cobb's Creek
« Reply #8 on: August 31, 2005, 12:56:02 AM »
it was indeed back and to the left when i used to play there (last visit was probably 11 years ago). that silly turf mat tee puts you at a ridiculous angle. they should restore the correct tee.

John_Conley

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Thanks for sharing
« Reply #9 on: August 31, 2005, 10:17:02 AM »
I'm very interested in Cobb's Creek.  I heard a presentation a little over a year ago from Ron Jackson, the head of Meadowbrook Golf.  They have a management company and he was touting Cobb's as the next Bethpage.  They were going to use Greg Norman for the redesign/renovation; he designed their courses at Champions Gate in Orlando.

He spoke of all this like a done deal.  Turned out it never happened.  Please keep me updated as the design seems to have merit.

Steve_ Shaffer

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Re:There's a darn good golf course under there... Cobb's Creek
« Reply #10 on: August 31, 2005, 10:57:56 AM »
John

Meadowbrook has been out as the lease operator since spring of this year. A new company, Liberty Golf -comprised of the local people from Meadowbrook, are the new lease operators on an interim basis until the City publishes a new RFP. My guess is that Liberty is undercapitalized and may not have the resources of companies like Casper Golf or Kemper Golf to compete for the job down the road.

As I indicated, I will be writing a letter to David Fay at the USGA to highlight the current tragedy of this course. Perhaps, the USGA will grant some financial largesse to Cobbs. Maybe the corporations and law firms,etc in the city could spearhead a civic movement to fund renovations. The course needs to be closed and loss of revenue would follow. The City has no funds for this type of project. It's the old adage- "You have to spend money to make money." I'm sure rounds are down now due to current conditions but imagine how busy this course would be if properly and sympathetically renovated and marketed.

Gil Hanse, having done some work there recently, could provide an estimate and timetable for this job.

Steve
« Last Edit: August 31, 2005, 10:59:05 AM by Steve_ Shaffer »
"Some of us worship in churches, some in synagogues, some on golf courses ... "  Adlai Stevenson
Hyman Roth to Michael Corleone: "We're bigger than US Steel."
Ben Hogan “The most important shot in golf is the next one”

wsmorrison

Re:There's a darn good golf course under there... Cobb's Creek
« Reply #11 on: August 31, 2005, 11:11:44 AM »
Kyle,

I was going to say it looks like you lost a lot of weight  ;)

Steve,

Good for you, if you're looking for signatures you've got mine!
Cobb's is an interesting layout and would make a fine crown jewel of municipal golf for Philadelphians.  I hope it can be brought back to its former prominence as an early municipal course.  I believe Philadelphia had the first regional public golf association, headed by William Gordon sometime after Flynn built Marble Hall now Green Valley CC.

What work did Gil Hanse do at Cobb's?
« Last Edit: August 31, 2005, 03:05:30 PM by Wayne Morrison »

Steve_ Shaffer

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Re:There's a darn good golf course under there... Cobb's Creek
« Reply #12 on: August 31, 2005, 12:12:48 PM »
Wayne

I believe Gil Hanse worked on bunkers and greens on some holes due to last years heavy rains-maybe 4,5&6 plus some others. The 17th- a very good par 3- is closed as the green has been regrassed and the bunkers redone. The tee there needs major work. The 18th green has been regrassed and is very hairy. Cory took more pictures. As noted in the pic above, the green on 2 has been regrassed and is hairy. 2 is a very good hole- the pic doesn't show the severe back to front slope of the green. I'm trying to find my pics from my 2003 visit which I posted then.

Steve
"Some of us worship in churches, some in synagogues, some on golf courses ... "  Adlai Stevenson
Hyman Roth to Michael Corleone: "We're bigger than US Steel."
Ben Hogan “The most important shot in golf is the next one”

Craig_Rokke

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Re:There's a darn good golf course under there... Cobb's Creek
« Reply #13 on: August 31, 2005, 03:52:15 PM »
Thanks for posting the pictures. Gotta love the range mat
on the par 3!

Hopefully the course will see some improvements. The last time I played, parts of the course such as the creek, had literally become a dumping ground for debris--grocery carts, tires, cans etc. A real shame.

I remember enjoying a par 5 that crossed over the stream twice, early on in the round, perhaps the 3rd hole or so.

I also remember a 600 yard hole on the back, and wondered
if it had been there since the origin of the course. (Perhaps the first 600 yard hole in the US?) Hope they can get it together.

For those who don't mind a short course, Walnut Lane is a Phila muni charmer.

Kyle Harris

Re:There's a darn good golf course under there... Cobb's Creek
« Reply #14 on: September 01, 2005, 11:09:36 AM »


The above is taken from www.golfphilly.com with the Olde Course shown on the left hand side.

Of interest in the routing is how holes 3-6 follow the creek. If Cory gets the chance maybe he can post a picture of the fifth, where the creek goes right down the middle of the hole. The creek is used on the different holes with different angles as well, so the variety never is in doubt and the feel of the routing is as if you were walking through the woods.

Also of note is the ridge on the back nine that cuts in front of the 12th green/13th tee and on top of which the 14th tee and 15th green are located.

mike_malone

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Re:There's a darn good golf course under there... Cobb's Creek
« Reply #15 on: September 01, 2005, 11:16:54 AM »
 Klye,

  Thanks for that map of Cobb's. I love #18 on Karakung. I also think a few other holes on that side of the street for Karakung are reminiscent of Merion West. I recall one with a creek fronting.

     My thought is to have Karakung  on the right side of that road and Cobb's on the left. I realize one gives up the wonderful #2 but maybe some creative person can figure a way to incorporate it.
AKA Mayday

wsmorrison

Re:There's a darn good golf course under there... Cobb's Creek
« Reply #16 on: September 01, 2005, 12:29:09 PM »
"My thought is to have Karakung  on the right side of that road and Cobb's on the left. I realize one gives up the wonderful #2 but maybe some creative person can figure a way to incorporate it."

Wouldn't the Olde be 23 holes and Karakung be 15 if the road separated the two courses?  Seriously, though why would you mess with the routing and hole progressions?  What's wrong with it the way it is?  What improvements are you looking for?

Cobb's Creek is in some ways like the East Course at Merion.  There is a nice mixture of long and short par 4s and the play is much longer than the scorecard inidcates.  

The same stream--Cobb's Creek comes into play on both courses and in similar fashions.  

Steve Sayers found an old article that indicated that Hugh Wilson was on the committee that was responsible for the development of golf at Cobb's Creek but that another  (an Italian or Italian-American I believe the name was) designed it.  Maybe the reporter erred, confusing building with designing.  In any case, the Wilson influence seems strong.
« Last Edit: September 01, 2005, 12:30:32 PM by Wayne Morrison »

mike_malone

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Re:There's a darn good golf course under there... Cobb's Creek
« Reply #17 on: September 01, 2005, 01:30:38 PM »
 Wayne,
     
      I think there are a few bland holes on Cobb's which could be replaced by some of the present Karakung holes on the left side of the road.  Even if it is only some of those Karakung green complexes that get saved.I am thinking of 2 par 3's--the pictured one and #8. # 16 could also go. According to people who claim to know, these holes are not original anyway.

      There seems to be some room on that map for more Karakung holes, if needed. I am not holding myself out as an expert here, but trying to see how Cobb's could  be closer to a Bethpage Black lite.


   A complete review of the property with each course intertwining may also be possible. I love how the Mourne course sneeks into Royal County Down.  


   Even my unexpert eye sees potential for something special here. And there is already much that can just stay the same.
AKA Mayday

Mike_Cirba

Re:There's a darn good golf course under there... Cobb's Creek
« Reply #18 on: September 01, 2005, 01:58:50 PM »
My Strong Sense is that some of the Karakung holes nearest the clubhouse were part of the original Cobbs routing.

Gentlemen, we have a winter mission if we choose to accept it.  We need to get our butts down to the Hagley Museum and find out the definitive early routing of Cobbs Creek, as well as Karakung.

Who's in?

mike_malone

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Re:There's a darn good golf course under there... Cobb's Creek
« Reply #19 on: September 01, 2005, 02:03:20 PM »
 I was told today that the Fairmount Park Commission has  a photo archive on Cobb's.
AKA Mayday

Mike_Cirba

Re:There's a darn good golf course under there... Cobb's Creek
« Reply #20 on: September 01, 2005, 02:06:04 PM »
I was told today that the Fairmount Park Commission has  a photo archive on Cobb's.

Cool, but my bet is that they won't indicate the actual routing, as we know the Hagley Museum photos will.  

Geoffrey_Walsh

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Re:There's a darn good golf course under there... Cobb's Creek
« Reply #21 on: September 01, 2005, 02:06:32 PM »
Mike C. - Count me in as your "wing man" for any upcoming mission.

Mayday - There are aerials of Cobb's from the 30's and 40's hanging in the clubhouse.

Here is a link to an earlier discussion about the same topic:
http://www.golfclubatlas.com/forums2/index.php?board=1;action=display;threadid=17707
« Last Edit: September 01, 2005, 02:19:37 PM by Geoffrey_Walsh »

Geoffrey_Walsh

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Re:There's a darn good golf course under there... Cobb's Creek
« Reply #22 on: September 01, 2005, 02:11:49 PM »
I actually found fault with only two holes in the design, the first and the eighth: both are fairly simple.

IMHO the 8th is actually quite a good par 3.  It appears simple enough, with the bunker & slope to the left and the trees to the right.  However, after you play it a few times you realize just how good the hole truly is.  The bunker and slope influence you to err to the right of the green but it is a much tougher up and down from there than it is from bunker.  When those greens are running quick, it is almost impossible to chip the ball close to a front right pin.

I have always thought that hole was a great example of a hole that looks much easier than it actually plays.

mike_malone

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Re:There's a darn good golf course under there... Cobb's Creek
« Reply #23 on: September 01, 2005, 02:19:09 PM »
 Geoffrey,

 I agree with your view of #8. I was told today that it was not original and that some holes were on that driving range that is accessed by Rte. 1.

    It is just that some choices must be made.


    The fun is in the creativity of "what if".

   
AKA Mayday

Geoffrey_Walsh

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Re:There's a darn good golf course under there... Cobb's Creek
« Reply #24 on: September 01, 2005, 02:34:27 PM »
Mayday,

I am just excited that people are finally discussing the potential of this course again!  It has always been one of my goals to bring this course back from the abyss...

Regarding #8, it doesn't surprise me that the driving range on City Line Ave. was the original site of some of the holes.  My guess is that there was probably a par 3 or short par 4 on that piece of property and the current 9th tee was much further back as well.  It is interesting to note that #9, while quirky, probably brings more decision making into the tee shot given it's current length than it did if it was 50-60 yds. longer.  As I have said before, I have seen everything from a 2 to an 8 made on that hole.

One other thing I'll throw out there - Cobb's has some of my favorite approach shots of any course in the area.  One's that jump out immediately:

#3 - It is reminiscent of #11 at Merion
#10 - The bunker creates a blind shot to a narrow green from an awkward yardage.  A hole that really makes you think about how to tackle it.
#12 - Talk about a severe green complex.  In the Philly Open Amateur I saw a guy 5 putt it.  Place the pin just over the front left bunker and try to get an approach close.
#15 - Throw it out to the left and let it ride the ridge to the green.  Go right at it (over the forced carry) and it won't hold in the summer.
#17 - Could be a scenic approach shot if they just took care of it.  Another severe green at high speeds, particularly the left side.

Cobb's is a different course when it is fast and firm.  I was lucky enough to play it under those tournament conditions two years ago and I have never felt as defensive on a set of greens.  Unfortunately that seems to happen about as often as Haley's comet.
« Last Edit: September 01, 2005, 02:38:37 PM by Geoffrey_Walsh »