Geat short Par 5's and why.

[David Druzisky]

In a recent debate it was asked are there any great par 5's under 500 yards.  A Golfonline list of the best holes in the world listed several including the following:

#9 Montery Penninsula Club (Dunes) 479 yards
#16 Oak Tree GC  479 yards
#3 Prestwick  482 yards
#14 Pumpkin Ridge (WH) 470 yards
#15 Royal Adelaide 499 yards
#16 St. Edonoc  487 yards
#16 TPC Sawgrass 497 yards
#11 Waterville  496 yards
#13 Augusta  485 yards (is it still )

What are the traits of these holes (or others) that make them great with these lengths.  Are they rich in stategy or very penal?  Stong risk/reward scenarios?  What if anything is consistent among them?  (I have not seen them all but I know that many of them are not even uphill.)

How about the effect of new technology on this specific type of hole?

What others could be considered great short par 5's and why?

[Patrick_Mucci]

David,

I'll cite two, and they're both from the same golf course.

# 7 at 478 and # 18 at 502.

Where else, NGLA.

# 18 because it's # 18 and because the drive, 2nd and approach put a premium on positioning, strategy and dealing with the wind.  The approach shot, with the pin in the rear of the green is one of the most frightening shots in golf, from 30 to 160 yards out.

# 7 because of the replication of the drive at TOC and the unique nature of the green, its surrounds and bunkering, and, the wind.

[Tyler Kearns]

David,

At my home club, we have 3 par-5's that fit this scenaio, not necessarily "great", but measuring 479-495 yds in length - and I consider them all an asset, rather than a liability to the overall quality of the course. These half-par holes are fraut with danger to those who are greedy and do not know their limitations, yet a quick glance at the scorecard taunts us to push the limit. Each hole presents the realistic chance to score a "3", and also a dreaded "7" or worse. In medal play, these holes are always in the back of one's mind as a chance to get a few back, however, when one of them bites back, the mental anguish can nag for the remainder of the round.

TK

[cary lichtenstein]

I think there are 3 terrific short par fives at Lakota, the 5th, 11th and the 18th

[Ben Voelker]

Never been there...

but the 17th at Valderrama is listed as 490 from the tips on their website, although I wonder if the pros have played it longer than that.  I hole that seems to have some of the same risk/reward merits as 13th at Augusta, with the nasty green and the pond in front.

The thing I like about this hole, from what I've seen, is that the 3rd shot after the layup could be just as hard as the 2nd from 200 yards if you spin the ball at all.

[David Druzisky]

Cary,  I have not been to Lakota - qualify those holes for me - why are they any good and how do they get enough variety out of having three on the same course?

Tyler, I too think they could be an asset to any course - but they are hard to do maybe as compared to the short par 4?  I like the mental side of it you touch on as that should be a part of it.

[George_Bahto]

#16 TPC Sawgrass 497 yards:

Water on the right all along the 2nd/3rd shots that continues greenside and behind ..... and the 17th TPC is screwing your head while you're playing the 16th

just great Pete Dye stuff

[Mark Studer]

Two come to mind: The third  at Indian Creek in north miami and the 7th hole at Gulph Mills.  They both can be reached in two but if  you miss the green , you can have a troublesome third shot.  At Indian Creek after a good drive , you can hit it into a greenside bunker or lay back with a 6 iron and have your favorite sand wedge yardage  into a small firm elevated green. About the only way to hit and hold the 3rd  in 2 at Indian Creek is to skip it through a Flynn greenside bunker.  At Gulph Mills' 7th, bail out right for your second and leave a difficult pitch or worse yet, miss your second left into the draconian abyss. Classic risk reward second shots on both holes.

[Kyle Harris]

The one I'm sending to Golf Magazine...  

Add to the above list:
#7 Rolling Green

[Gerry B]

the 12th at my home course - The National  in Toronto- just under 500 yards - double dog leg with trouble everywhere- very quirky  / tight hole from tee to green.My definition of  a classic risk / reward hole. Have seen many snowstorms on this hole in the middle of the summer.

[TEPaul]

"What are the traits of these holes (or others) that make them great with these lengths.  Are they rich in stategy or very penal?  Stong risk/reward scenarios?  What if anything is consistent among them?"

DavidD:

I'd say the most consistent traits about those par 5 holes under 500 yards that are great all basically include all those things you included in your questions---eg rich in strategies, potentially penal, strong risk/reward strategies. In a general sense they probably all can be categorized as "go/no go" par 5s----eg meaning the basic strategy from tee to green is to hit either a long or well positioned drive (or both) AND THEN the psychological game begins of whether to try to reach them in two or lay up safely and play safely to them in three.

As it usually is in golf, however, these interesting "go/no go" strategies are almost always ONLY for golfers who possess the ability to hit the ball fairly far. For the rest, then, interesting and variable strategies of how to play to their greens in three strokes needs to be developed and maintained to make these kinds of holes truly great for everyone.

In my opinion, the latter fact is what separates the truly great par 5s of under 500 yards from those that are merely interesting or great for the long player to choose to hit in two or not.  

In this way, in my opinion, holes like NGLA's #7 and #18 are frankly more interesting than say GMGC's #7 that Mark Studer mentioned above. Again, the reason why is there's simply more to do---more available strategies and choices in how to play to these holes in three shots for the shorter player who always will be the majority of golfers.

I don't know if it's under 500 yards but one of the most interesting "go/no go" par 5s I've ever seen is Sand Hills's #14. What goes on in the second half of that hole architecturally and playability-wise for the golfer playing to that hole in either two or three shots is about as variable and multi-optional and brilliant as I've ever seen.

[TEPaul]

Regarding that ultra-brilliant "go/no go" par 5 14th at Sand Hills credit should be given where it's due. As many of us who know them and how they work together know it's no secret that Bill Coore probably spends about 90% more time on their project sites than does Ben Crenshaw. It may even be said that Bill has always been the team's primary router.

However, and according to the owner of Sand Hills, the 14th hole really was Ben's discovery and even more than that. The golf course was slated to be to the east of that hole (even the deed did not include the land #14 is on). But Ben walked right off the property originally slated for the course and found that hole precipitating a deed alteration and the moving of the course up in that direction to include it.

[TEPaul]

Also regarding Sand Hills's #14, it just goes to show that even a great hole such as this one can always be looked at to perhaps include a new wrinkle somehow.

Our irrepressible architectural "curiosity-head", Ran Morrissett, apparently thinks a stretch of rough perhaps 100 yards long that separates #14 from #15 should be turned into melded fairway---and I tend to agree with him. I believe doing that would in no way at all compromise the fascinating strategies of #14 (it might even enhance it somewhat) but it very likely would enhance the strategies of #15 going the other way.

Ran may even broach this subject to Bill or Ben. Ran says he'll present the issue to them with this question.

"Bill (or Ben) do you realize that you completely blew the opportunity for an otherwise great and world-class golf course by failing to meld together into fairway a stretch of rough between #14 and #15 of perhaps 100 yards long?"

[TEPaul]

Another item of interest for today's GOLFCLUBATLAS.com readers is that our own irrepressible architectural "curiosity-head", Ran Morrissett, really does have a head that's undoubtedly larger than any head in the history of golf course architecture and just may be one of the largest heads in the history of human-kind. For those who are into this kind of thing, Ran's head or hat size may be 8 and 15/16th or even larger. Some may be impressed by such a thing as this and perhaps I am too----even if I can't quite decide, since he told me how large his head really is about two month ago, if that is impressive or merely gross!  

(I'm sorry, my fellow GOLFCLUBATLAS.com readers and contributors----it's just me again. Is it possible to get this far off the subject of this thread this fast by anyone but moi?).

It may even be interesting to offer some intelligent and well researched speculation, in my next post, on what Fireball Roberts would have thought of the size of Ran's head.

[Philippe Binette]

I think great short par five must have a real hazard in the way, especially around the green / and a easy looking but not so easy bail-out...

Best example are TPC at Sawgrass 16th and ANGC 13th. Players have around 190 - 200 yards to the hole. It's a par five, they know they must make 4... but from that distance, they know they could go at the flag and make 3 (If they are going at the flag, they have a lot of negative pressure, it would be stupid to domp it in the water and make 6).

But they must make at worst 4, so some aim to the middle of the green, if they hit the middle of the green (both Augusta and Sawgrass) they are on the high side leaving themself a tough 2-putt. If they miss left trying to hit the middle of the green, odds for getting up and down is 1/5...

so they end up making five a lot of time


We have a 450 yards par 5 at my place, it's a great debate every time we talk about it.

15 feet left of the green is a 20 feet deep fall off full of trees, bushes and leaves on the ground, it is not a hazard so, if you miss there from 175 yards, you have to play a provisional... you may found the ball in the depression, but you need to be a master of disaster from there...

The green is an inverted bowl on the left side and a collection area right. so basically, the pin is on the left side plateau 95% of the time...

Good players want it to be a par 4 by calling the trouble on the left a hazard, I'm opposed to that, because score will be between 4 or 6 if the left side is a hazard, taking off negative pressure on the second shot. As a par 5 and the trouble zone not a hazard, I have seen more 8 and 9 from good players than 3... On the second shot, there's more weird 20 yards  hook with a 5 iron that happen there than anywhere...

[Kyle Harris]

Another item of interest for today's GOLFCLUBATLAS.com readers is that our own irrepressible architectural "curiosity-head", Ran Morrissett, really does have a head that's undoubtedly larger than any head in the history of golf course architecture and just may be one of the largest heads in the history of human-kind. For those who are into this kind of thing, Ran's head or hat size may be 8 and 15/16th or even larger. Some may be impressed by such a thing as this and perhaps I am too----even if I can't quite decide, since he told me how large his head really is about two month ago, if that is impressive or merely gross!  

(I'm sorry, my fellow GOLFCLUBATLAS.com readers and contributors----it's just me again. Is it possible to get this far off the subject of this thread this fast by anyone but moi?).

It may even be interesting to offer some intelligent and well researched speculation, in my next post, on what Fireball Roberts would have thought of the size of Ran's head.

I'm 8 7/8  

[Geoffrey Childs]

I must agree with the two holes mentioned from NGLA and Sand Hills #14.

With regard to #7 at NGLA I think it is great in large part from the road hole green complex.  The approach to this green is equally daunting with a wood in your hands from 230 as it is with a wedge in your hand from 70 yards.  In fact, that green complex recreated would make a great par 3 with tees anywhere from 100-150 yards away and with tees placed within a 360 degree circle around it from those distances! How many other green complexes could be that diverse?

[Doug Braunsdorf]

The one I'm sending to Golf Magazine...  

Add to the above list:
#7 Rolling Green

Kyle,

Is this with or without a certain bunker present?  

[rgkeller]

The fourth at Garden City.

IMO, the best hole on a wonderful course.

Strategy all the way for all levels of golfer.

And pin placements that dictate different strategies to the aware player.

[Kyle Harris]

Doug,

Was thinking that... and I'm waiting for a certain someone to cite the 18th at said course as one....  

[Tom_Doak]

The fourth at GCGC is a wonderful and underrated hole, but it's also about 530 yards.

The one par five I'd throw in from my own designs is the third at Pacific Dunes (499 from the back, the last time I checked).  It's a good three-shot hole for most people into the summer wind, and a tough go in two for the good players; and it's very reachable downwind, but trouble abounds around the green.

I would say the key characteristic of a great short 5 is that you have to have the possibility of a big number if you go for the green in two and miss to one side or the other.  If that's not a factor, then good players will not debate whether to go for it or not, and short hitters will have no chance to compete with them.

Thirteen at Augusta is the perfect example.  I can't believe the sixteenth at St. Enodoc made that list ... a beautiful but straightforward hole on a great course.

[TEPaul]

"I would say the key characteristic of a great short 5 is that you have to have the possibility of a big number if you go for the green in two and miss to one side or the other.  If that's not a factor, then good players will not debate whether to go for it or not, and short hitters will have no chance to compete with them."

TomD:

Excellent point about real danger somewhere around the green for long players in two and how that can help the short player's ability to compete better with them. But I think there's even added value to those short par 5s that give the shorter players a lot of different ways to play the 3rd shot such as holes like NGLA's #7 or Sand Hills's #14.

[David Druzisky]

It sounds like with a majority of the beter holes the emphasis is being put on the green complex to guard the hole from being vulnerable.  Could you look at it like a difficult par 3 with an attached drive to set it up?  With the longer and better players playing their drives closer to the green leaving a shorter approach, the green needs to be designed to be challenging for those shorter approaches while allowing a conservative route that would still require good execution on the third shot (if not putting) even though a pitch or chip typically.  Navigating the hazzards.  Werent par 3's back in the day really looked at this way.  Only a select few trully had the ability to get on the surface in one while others played short, pitched up, then finished.

There is a lot going on here to make this type of hole work and it can't be simply making a real difficult green complex to guard it. (due consideration to the other course specific traits of wind, elevation, and mental pressure).  What about the drive?  Can't we set up the approach with a strong risk reward element on the drive where the risk is the pay-off of yardage or angle of approach?  Say cross bunkers at a specific yardage or similar narrowing of the fairway at the deep yardages?

[Mark_F]

Tom Doak,

"I would say the key characteristic of a great short five is that you have to have the possibility of a big number if you go for the green in two and miss to one side or the other."

Doesn't that mean a boomerang green would be perfect for (one of) them?

[Sean_A]

Mark

Do ya think #13 at Burnham & Berrow fits the bill for a great short three shotter?  

1. Long hitters have to decide from the tee if they are going to take on the path (sandy ditch) AND if they lay up, to which side?  Shorter hitters also have the decision of which side because there is a ridge that can kick the ball into the left rough if one gets it going left to right.

2. If one lays up, how much club to hit for the second?  It certainly pays to get close to the green, but the fairway narrows the closer you get.  

3. The approach runs the ball off the edge of the hill on the right.  Very dicey to dicipher from 125-150 out (for the layeruppers).  Same problem occurs for going at it in two.  There is a five foot hump gaurding the left line of approach which brings the right fall off into play no matter the club in hand.  

4. The pin is usually back left on a long green which you don't want to be long.  

A truly devilish par five that always brings a smile to my face.  

Ciao

Sean