[Hart Huffines]

Happy Holidays to Ran and everyone.

I was trying to research great short par 4 holes
of an inland variety and wondered if ya'll could
help me?  I know about the 13th at Pine Valley, the
3rd at Pinehurst and several others but
hoped to find more.

Does anyone know of examples which might fit
the following descriptions?:

1.  Up a slight hill, slight dogleft left around
a tree line with a pitch shot of 85-100 yards
to a well guarded green?  300 - 325 yards
total length.

2.  Drive across a depression to a slightly
downhill fairway, followed by a downhill
shot to the left of 175-125 yards depending
on tee shot.  375 - 400 yards total.

Thanks, any help would be most appreciated!

[spdb!]

13th at PV a short par 4? Has the technology gotten so out
of control that 450+ now qualifies as "short"  

[Mike Benham]

I believe the 4th at Spyglass qualifies for scenario #2 ...

http://www.pebblebeach.com/1e1.html

A fine golf hole ...

[A_Clay_Man]

The second hole at Spyglass Hill, Billy Bones, qualifies for number one and Mike is right about the 4th there too.

[Mike Benham]

7th at Olympic, up hill but no slight dogleg left or tree ...

The 7th at Pasatiempo, uphill, slight dogleg left, except the tree is on the right ... wow, just thinking about that 3-hole stretch at Pasa, hole 6-8, makes my driver quiver and my putter fearful (especially on #8)

[Joel_Stewart]

You could get a million answers on this one.

First, you must be refering to the 12th at Pine Valley which is 320 yards.

I'll suggest the 3rd at Fishers Island, uphill with a slight bend, 335 yards.

Also the 15th at Wild Horse which is 342 dogleg left.

Mike suggested the 7th at Olympic which is 288 and slightly uphill.  I'll suggest the 18th at Olympic which is 347 but straight.

[K.Hegland]

The two best short par 4's I've had the privelage to play quite a few times are the 2nd at Austin Golf Club and the 17th at Crystal Downs.  Niether one fits your criteria, but none the less they are tremendous golf holes.  I will never forget the first time I set up the 17th at Crystal Downs and was like, "Man this seems like a long par 3!"  I absolutely love that golf hole, I've played it so many times and I've never even came close to having the same shot into the green, I'm still convinced that the original tee box is now where the cart path is, but what do I know.  As for Austin Golf Clubs #2, I'm biased as I play it as much as possible, and its always a challenge, usually more mentally then anything, I love to see guys take a cut at it with the wind with them, it tips out at 287 so everyone thinks they can get there, good luck, if you get it there, it isn't staying there!  The green is a tiny devilish creature that seems to have more breaks in it then I ever read.  
Kyle

[CHrisB]

Does Merion #10 fit description #1?
Does Bethpage Black #6 fit description #2?

[Doug Wright]

Hart,

Sand Hills #8 resembles your first example, and is a terrific golf hole due to the well-bunkered greensite and sloped green. Sand Hills #7 is shorter, driveable but very difficult to find the green and if you don't you have a devilish pitch or run up to the green. These were my favourite two holes on a course replete with wonderful holes.  Riviera #10 too?

There are a million of these holes and when done well they're terrific.

All The Best,    

[Gib_Papazian]

I do not know if this qualifies as "great," but I was terribly disappointed to learn that Castle Harbor in Bermuda had been destroyed.

The 10th hole was one of the strangest - yet most compelling and original short par-4's holes I ever played. After many tries, I still have not the slightest idea how to play it.

For those who have not been to Bermuda, you stood on a terrace tee overlooking the Atlantic, staring down a shoulder of fairway that corkscrewed its way to the left down a steep embankment. Swing away with a driver - or 3-wood - and there was a good chance of reaching the green, nudged into the hillside to the left and perilously close to the edge of the cliff on the right.

The fairway turned so quickly, that the "safe" play required no more than a 9-iron lobbed down the chute, assuming you still wanted to see the ball when it landed.

Of course, you could try and sneak a five iron across the shoulder of hillside and try and leave it in the throat at the front of the green, but one tick too far right or left was an instant double-bogey or worse.

Even the chicken-out shot from the tee left a wedge into a crosswind to a slender ribbon of putting surface.

I miss that hole; our room at the hotel overlooked it and in truth I probably played it 10 times. It was hard to resist after a cocktail or two following High Tea.

Good or bad, I loved its quirk and personality. As a matter of fact, there were lots of holes on that golf course I found fascinating . . . . . a terrifically entertaining afternoon round after tackling Mid Ocean. . . . . .

I wonder what is there now.

[mdugger8]

how about the ninth at Cypress, or did I not hear the question correctly.  The 1st at Pac Dunes is a good short hole, if you have played it before.  

I enjoyed watching the ryder cuppers shoot for the green on what I believe to be #10 at the Belfry.  This, however, is only a dramatic hole because of the severity of the green (narrow)

I always liked the look of Weiskopf and Morrish's Forest Highlands 17th.  Tempting drive, but mostly downhill, I guess.

10th at Riviera
  

[lesueur]

No. 2 sounds like the 18th on the Queens course at Gleneagles.

[wsmorrison]

Rolling Green #12  343 yards
Philadelphia CC #1  325 yards
Prestwick #16   288 yards
Pine Valley #8   319 yards
Indian Creek #13   309 yards
Merion West #13   333 yards

[Bob_Huntley]

Gib;

I am not sure what chemical substance was at hand-- but to say that you actually enjoyed the 10th at Castle Harbour makes me doubt your sanity!  It was the goofiest hole in all of golf and I couldn't wait to get by it.

Great short 'uns.

10th Riviera

Now this one should cause some discussion but how about the 4th at Pebble Beach? When the conditions are right and the green is firm I feel, that even with a wedge it is a demanding shot.

[NAF]

The 10th at Royal Melbourne West would kind of fit the 1st scenario..The hole plays slightly (maybe moderate) uphill at 305yds across a small valley and instead of the around a tree line, you have a cavernous bunker guarding the dogleg.

[Gib_Papazian]

Uncle Bob,

If you have not come to some conclusion about my basic sanity after all this time, it makes me doubt your judgement.

You see, I don't mind one (I said "ONE") absolutely bizarre golf hole on a course. I did not say it was good, but sometimes there are things so off-the-charts awful that they actually encircle the compass and start to approach "interesting."

I know you to be a man of exquisite taste, so I cannot imagine you tolerating a hole as outright strange as that one, but I own a video copy of John Waters' "Pink Flamingos," so it is possible that I may be beyond help.

Last night, I watched "Mary Poppins" with my children and after they went to bed, I paid my bills while watching "Clockwork Orange."

Now, does my amusement with #10 at Castle Harbor make more sense?  

[Greg Stebbins]

6 center at Ridgewood.. I'm surprised this hole has avoided discussion.

[Gene T.]

Hey Greg,
             6 Center at Ridgewood?  I thought for sure you would say the fifth at FH.

[Greg Stebbins]

I've only played Friars Head once, as compared to about 1000 rounds at Ridgewood, so I'd rather comment on 6 center.

6 center at Ridgewood is a true "drive and pitch" hole while I would characterize 5 at Friars Head as a "driveable" par 4.  I don't think 5 at FH fits the criteria in this thread.  The only way 6 center doesn't fit the criteria is that it is a dogleg right instead of left, and at 289 yards it is shorter than the 300-325yd. criteria, but no one in their right mind would try to drive the green.

[bill_k]

The first one sounds like #2 at Yeamans Hall except it is 340-345 yds.

[GeoffreyChilds]

#15 at Wild Horse
#15 at Fenway

[Dave_Miller]

Gib:
On the 10th at Castle Harbour when I first saw it I thought they built 17 holes ran out of room and said, "Oh my gosh we forgot number 10.  Let's squeeze it in over here"

Those must have been some pretty high test cocktails after High Tea to truly like that hole.

Although I do admit I always enjoyed Castle Harbour.  

Has it been torn up?  For what purpose?  Hopefully it will still be a golf course

Best
Dave

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