News:

Welcome to the Golf Club Atlas Discussion Group!

Each user is approved by the Golf Club Atlas editorial staff. For any new inquiries, please contact us.


JESII

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Late Tee Times at Baltusrol ...
« Reply #50 on: August 23, 2005, 10:05:12 AM »
Jim:

If you need the specific financials then contact CEO Jim Awtrey at the PGA of America in Palm Beach, FL.

Matt,
You refuse to provide any support or evidence that will win you this argument. I know the financial details are not readily available, but that is where your answer lies.


The PGA of America did state (Kerry Haigh said this at the Sunday press conference when play was suspended for the day) that an extra day would mean more $$ out of the Association's pocket for the extra day in regards to the use of the facility, security, maintenance and other assorted categories.
But that is the risk they took in hopes of getting the coverage on at their desired hour. It simply blew up in their face.

Keep this in mind Jim -- ratings Sunday for the event were up 20% from the previous year. That is a fact. In addition, it would behoove the PGA to finish on the time in order to reap the benefits of the increased viewrship rather than allowing the event to slide into Monday.
Again, only clear in hindsight. The PGA said they wish they had your ability to function in by the way ;).

If the event had finished a bit early -- the tournament presentation ceremony plus extended interviews with the key players could easily fill in the extra time as needed. I understand you are a journalist so I don't mean to jest, but do you really think that is a viable solution. I can see it now, one hour of interviews with Tiger and Vijay about how they feel finishing behind Lefty with occasional shots of the Mickelson family hugging on the 18th green. The ratings would probably soar for that hour  ::) ::).

The 3:00 PM start cannot work when you reach August in the NY metro area. With no wiggle room the probabilities against finishing were all but certain to be defeated. Given the magnitude of the event it's hard to imagine what the PGA of America is thinking with such a late tee time. The Association, in conjunction with the club, did a superb job in all other aspects for the event. All but the issue of start times on Saturday and Sunday afternoons. No less than champion Phil Mickelson raised the issue right after the 3rd round.

Interesting approach Matt, I ask one question and you can't bring yourself to answer it. Learn from that. Your entire argument here is based on hindsight and speculation, the PGA cannot afford to speculate any more than they can see the future.

Matt_Ward

Re:Late Tee Times at Baltusrol ...
« Reply #51 on: August 23, 2005, 12:51:42 PM »
JES II:

You are clearly not a journalist but having the top players provide interviews should the event conclude before the telecast ended on Sunday would have been a perfect conclusion to the event.

I guess you see no news value in talking directly with Phil Mickelson and Tiger Woods, et al, in such a fantastic ending to the event. Whether CBS would have been able to get them is another matter but clearly accessing the media center with a live feed would have been something that could fill the remaining time plus be of added news value to those watching and listening. Othert events do this and the PGA could have simply followed what's been done previously.

You constantly tap dance around the obvious -- the weather forecasts spoke clearly to the issues at hand and the PGA of America ignored what sensible alternatives that could be implemented without compromsing the integrity of the event. You keep on barking about Monday morning QBing and that is simply rubbish. The facts on what was going to happen were there for anyone with open eyes to see. Moving the tee times is routinely done by the PGA Tour -- an inconvenient fact that you cannot make go away with even your tortured
logic -- and with proactive action the final round would have been concluded without bumping things to the dreaded "extra" day on Monday.

You just bark on and on and drone on and on about the financials but the guts and heart of the event is the event itself. When the people in charge of the event allow such inane actions to be the rule the very nature of the event is then thrown into question. Clearly, the folks who were attempting to finish on Sunday were struggling -- having the opportunity to stop play and come back the next day gave them an opportunity to regoup and possibly improve their chances to win. The same could not be said for those who were obligated to conclude their round on Sunday.

Let me point out a few facts that are clear. The PGA of America spent additional dollars to go to Monday -- they also compromised the improved ratings they achieved for the Sunday final round by having the event not conclude until the following day. Does this throw into question their ability orchestrate such events? I believe it does and so do countless other media and golf fans.

You expect golf events do run like the trains in Europe. Guess again friend -- that's not always the case and sound judgement could have implemented a host of alternatives that would honor the nature of what is being contested -- one of the four jewels in major tournament golf and still keep its TV audience and partners in mind.

Jim Nugent

Re:Late Tee Times at Baltusrol ...
« Reply #52 on: August 25, 2005, 10:59:14 AM »
Some more input on the PGA´s scheduling problems...

"Late thoughts on the PGA fiasco
August 18, 2005

by Frank Hannigan.  During Frank Hannigan's 28 year tenure with the USGA he was at the table for TV negotations nine times

When a tournament is scheduled to end is a matter of intense negotiation between the owners and the networks.

In general, the networks prefer a late finish because later means more viewers — higher Nielsen ratings, Advertisers get a somewhat bigger buck for their money. The scheduled time for finish appears as a clause in the contract.

The owners, in this case the PGA of America, have a solemn obligation to establish a realistic schedule, one that affords a high probability the event will finish on the scheduled day.

The PGA of America can dig in its heels saying it will not schedule any finish later than 6 p.m..

The network, CBS, isn't going to walk out the door. It will say "OK, if you finish at 6 rather than 7 we can't give you as much money."

The PGA of America's acceptance of a 7 p.m. finish time at Baltusrol was cowardly because it does not need the money.

The PGA of America is loaded. Not as much as the USGA, which has an investment portfolio worth $250,000,000, but then one suspects the USGA is preparing to make a run at Bill Gates' empire.

What the PGA of America did is even worse than it appears.

They are tremendously proud of the three-hole playoff system in the event of the tie. OK. So they've scheduled a 7 p.m. finish. Let's assume there is a tie, which happens about once every three years.

Sunset in New Jersey was 7:55 pm on the day in question. It will take them five minutes between the end of play and the start of the playoff. That leaves 50 minutes. Can you do a three-hole playoff in 50 minutes? Not if young Ben Crane is in it.

Should there be playoffs involving more than two players, as has happened twice in recent British Opens, there is no chance of finishing a three-hole playoff.

The PGA of America thus gives us the essence of irresponsibility, a con supreme, in order to make a few more bucks.

The USGA did the same sort of thing at its celebrated Open at Bethpage by scheduling an 8 p.m. finish.

That wasn't even in their contract. NBC Executives asked for an exception, the USGA rolled over , and Tiger Woods played his last hole in the dark.

The Masters is another matter entirely.

At Augusta they are running an honest to God sporting event. If there is a dicey weather forecast for Sunday the starting times, even though already announced, are advanced by an hour or whatever it takes.

CBS? At Augusta it speaks only when spoken to and not too loudly.

It is of some irony that the fiasco happened at Baltusrol.

When the l967 Open was played at Baltusrol — the one Nicklaus won after hitting an ungodly l iron to the final green — there was a monumental thunder storm immediately after Nicklaus and his fellow competitor, one Arnold Palmer, holed out.

The USGA Executive Committee at its next meeting voted unanimously that it would never again schedule a U.S. Open to end after 6 p.m. so that it would have more than two hours, on the year's longest days to cope with weather delays.

That action was simply ignored by the present crop of USGA nickel-and-dimers at Bethpage.

Ah, there were giants in those days. There are weasels in these days."

Matt_Ward

Re:Late Tee Times at Baltusrol ...
« Reply #53 on: August 25, 2005, 11:08:09 AM »
Jim:

Thanks for posting -- but for Jes II the issue will be who the hell is Frank Hannigan -- just a disgruntled former USGA Exec Director.

Frank covers the same points I have been making.

PThomas

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Late Tee Times at Baltusrol ...
« Reply #54 on: August 25, 2005, 11:14:28 AM »
fwiw, and I don't think it's been mentioned yet, Golf World had a bit this week about , in its opinion, how the PGA screwed up with a Monday finish
199 played, only Augusta National left to play!

JESII

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Late Tee Times at Baltusrol ...
« Reply #55 on: August 25, 2005, 02:48:33 PM »
Jim:

Thanks for posting -- but for Jes II the issue will be who the hell is Frank Hannigan -- just a disgruntled former USGA Exec Director.

Frank covers the same points I have been making.

The only difference is that Hannigan brings actual experience and evidence to the conversation. I thank and applaud Jim Nugent for doing the research needed to back up your nonsensical bitching. You started this thread for one reason, to bitch about the tournament not finishing on Sunday evening. Your solutions were based 100% on speculation and I wanted to make it clear to you that speculation is crap when running a tournament.

Hannigan clearly supports my "financials" argument in that the networks pay the PGA less because they are paid less by their advertisers for a 6PM finish as opposed to a 7PM finish. The PGA was not willing to take that loss on speculation and they paid dearly for it. I will not shed any tears for them, but I do understand their dilemna, which you refuse to open your eyes to. And to think, I offered a concession to you very early in this thread if you could simply support your bitching with a little substance and you failed to do so.

Jim found a very enlightening piece and shared it with us and you decide the first/best thing to do is take a shot at me because you're pissed I called your posts speculative crap.

Thanks to Jim.

Matt, get a clue, you're exhausting.

Matt_Ward

Re:Late Tee Times at Baltusrol ...
« Reply #56 on: August 25, 2005, 07:46:05 PM »
JES II:

Please help me stop laughing -- if someone makes the same points as the next person what the hell does it matter who has the actual experience? The conclusions match -- end of story!

Hello earth to JES II -- anybody there -- time to wake up in the spaceship your flying around the earth in on this issue.

Now, because the credentials are tied to Hannigan's name you have no wiggle room -- so you throw forward the same tired invective about me. How predictable and dead wrong.

FYI -- My eyes are opened wide to the issues at hand -- it's your ears that are cemented shut. Take heart -- even water can penetrate cement if given enough time. ;D

Tim_Cronin

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Late Tee Times at Baltusrol ...
« Reply #57 on: August 26, 2005, 01:33:03 AM »
Just a note to add to Frank Hannigan's piece (where did it run originally?): In 1967, the final tee time for the final round of the U.S. Open at Baltusrol was 3:19 p.m. (Marty Fleckman and Billy Casper). Jack Nicklaus and Arnold Palmer went off at 3:08 p.m.
Sunset was probably around 8:30, but ABC, in the second year of its deal with the USGA, wanted and got a late finish. Jim McKay had to interview Nicklaus and Palmer under lights by the 18th green after the round.
The website: www.illinoisgolfer.net
On Twitter: @illinoisgolfer

Jim Nugent

Re:Late Tee Times at Baltusrol ...
« Reply #58 on: August 26, 2005, 07:37:32 AM »
Just a note to add to Frank Hannigan's piece (where did it run originally?)

Ran in GolfObserver.com:  http://www.golfobserver.com/features/hannigan_PGATV.html

Cliff Hamm

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Late Tee Times at Baltusrol ...
« Reply #59 on: August 26, 2005, 09:28:52 AM »
Just a note to add to Frank Hannigan's piece (where did it run originally?): In 1967, the final tee time for the final round of the U.S. Open at Baltusrol was 3:19 p.m. (Marty Fleckman and Billy Casper). Jack Nicklaus and Arnold Palmer went off at 3:08 p.m.
Sunset was probably around 8:30, but ABC, in the second year of its deal with the USGA, wanted and got a late finish. Jim McKay had to interview Nicklaus and Palmer under lights by the 18th green after the round.

1980 - 2:35 Aoki/Nicklaus

1993 - 2:05 Stewart/Janzen

Patrick_Mucci

Re:Late Tee Times at Baltusrol ...
« Reply #60 on: August 26, 2005, 02:36:14 PM »
Cliff Hamm,

June 22nd is the longest day of the Year.
The final round of the US Open isn't too far removed from that date.

The final day of this year's PGA was mid August, 60 days and  about an hour less of daylight.

In addition, the forecast for this year's PGA was dicey.
If I recall correctly the weather forecast for the final round of the US Open was more favorable.

Cliff Hamm

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Late Tee Times at Baltusrol ...
« Reply #61 on: August 26, 2005, 09:08:26 PM »
Pat - no disagreement from me. Just trying to give two examples of earlier than 3 tee times.  The 3 o'clock starting time was a travesty and should not be repeated...