Stupid Questions

[Adam_F_Collins]

I have a few questions on my mind, but none worth their own thread, so I thought I'd ask them here as a group. I encourage anyone with little questions of their own to tack 'em on.

1) Lets say I have one golf course with four big bunkers and another with forty smaller ones, but both have the same total sand area. Which is more expensive to maintain?

2) How wide is too wide for a fairway on your average north american golf course? How narrow is too narrow? For the further reaches of the driving area; or areas where golfers might hit a long iron second...

3) Are there any biarritz holes where the swale lies 'down the line'? or are they only across the line?

4) Are there any holes with greens which have a large hump or knoll in them which serves  only as an obstacle and is too severe for any pin placements - like a huge pimple in the green?

[Michael Moore]

Cape Arundel number five has a large unpinnable knob front and center which not only repels shots every which way but also creates havoc with depth perception.

I landed my approach right on top of this knob last time. Mike Sweeney kicked my ass all over Kennebunkport on that day! Yikes!

[paul cowley]

 Adam my man ...there are no stupid questions, just answers...which I will try my best to avoid.

 1] the hole with the four larger bunkers as the detailing [edges] would be less and an overall economy of scale.

 2] I love width but don't think any hole should be wider than it is long....maybe

 3] #6 at the Retreat course at Sea Island Resort has one.

 4] #6 at Orchard Creek in Altamont NY has an excellent example of the hole you described

[Scott_Burroughs]

4) Are there any holes with greens which have a large hump
or knoll in them which serves  only as an obstacle and is too
severe for any pin placements - like a huge pimple in the green?

Sometimes called "Buried Elephants".

A recent one I played and posted is at Boston GC, hole #1:



One I played last year was at Strantz' Tot Hill Farm, the par 3
6th.  You can barely make it out left of the pin, back and right of the red stake:



My home course has a couple holes with them, par 3 6th (2
next to each other on left side of green), and a flatter one on par 4 8th.

[Jim Thompson]

Adam,

The cost of a bunkers lies in the length of the edges which contain it.  So if the four big bunkers are circular they aare less expensive then the forty small circles.  If the 4 are giant lacey weavers, it could come back quickly to the field.

Too Wide: 100 yarsds with no center hazard.
Too Narrow: 25 yards

Angled Biarritz:  I believe the original plays now plays at a much altered angle.  I know there's a pic in The Evangelist of Golf.  George can you post?

Bumpy Obstacle:  I recall W. B. Matthews I as being known for using frontal green bumps.  As a result you may see them in some Stiles & VanKleek courses.  Maybe Bruce III can detail.

Cheers!

JT

[John_Cullum]

Paul Cowley beat me to identifying 6 at Sea island retreat.

Boobs on greens can be found at #6 Oak Ridge at the Landings, Savannah GA, I think that's a Nicklaus. Another is 11 at Cuscowilla.

[Steve Curry]

Paul beat me to pointing out the perfect example, and one he designed.  

I love/hate that hole, can never seem to score on that hole.  

Steve

[Tyler Kearns]

4) Are there any holes with greens which have a large hump or knoll in them which serves  only as an obstacle and is too severe for any pin placements - like a huge pimple in the green?

Adam,

I believe Whitman & Mingay built a "pimple" on the 17th green at Blackhawk in Edmonton. If I remember correctly, the hole is called "Crump", and I think that is exemplified with the "pimple" which mimics an original design feature on Pine Valley's 18th green that no longer exists.

TK

[Nathan Cashwell]

In "The Course Beautiful" Tillinghast discusses the 9th hole at Shackamaxon in N.J. (the article is actually about blind shots) and includes a development sketch of the hole which includes a rough grass mound in the green.  I think it takes more of a pimple appearance than a buried elephant and works more like Thomas' bunker in the green than it does a strategic contour in the green.  A photo in the book of the same green is cropped before the mound would come into view, so I don't know if it ever got built or survived.  Does anyone know anything about that feature?

[JohnV]

Say you had a 20 foot diameter bunker.  The radius is 10 so the area is pi*r^2 = 314 square feet and the circumfrence d*pi or 62.8 feet.  If you had 40 of these, the total area would be 12566 square feet and the total circumfrence would be 2512 feet.  If you said we only want 4 bunkers with an area of 12566, that would mean each would have an area of 3141.5 square feet.  Dividing by pi and taking the square root gives a radius of 31.6 feet or a diameter of 63.2 feet.  Multiply that by pi and we get a circumfrence for one bunker of 198.5 feet and a total circumfrence of 794 feet.  So four big bunkers would have a circumfrence that is only about 31% of the 40 small ones.  Now, if someone other than Rees Jones had done them so that they weren't perfect circles, these numbers would change.

Would a  "sideways" Biarittz be long with the slot up the middle and bunkers on the side or is very wide like with bunkers in front and back (ie a Biarittz played from the side)?

The 16th green at Witch Hollow at Pumpkin Ridge has a pimple or "muffin" as I've heard it called in the center of the green.

[Dave_Miller]

4) Are there any holes with greens which have a large hump or knoll in them which serves  only as an obstacle and is too severe for any pin placements - like a huge pimple in the green?

Adam:
No. 10 at Charles River has two such humps as you describe.  Tom Paul calls them Poofs.  Tommy has also indicated to me that Perry Maxwell used this feature although I believe Charles River predates Perry Maxwell.
We would tell visitors that the humps were where we buried the horses that used to pull the mowers.
Best
Dave

[George_Bahto]

Jm Thompson: RE: Biarritz holes

 "Are there any Biarritz holes where the swale lies 'down the line'? or are they only across the line?" ...

If you are asking if there are any swales on a Biarritz green where the swale runs directly along the intended line of play, I say certainly, no.

I've actually only seen one Biarritz green that is angled on the oblique to the line of play.

I want to build a Biarritz where the green is at "interesting" angle to the straight line of play .... probably should not have mentioned that one  - we'll probably we see one next year someplace      oh well

[Patrick_Mucci]

Nathan,

I've never seen any pictures or heard anybody reference a mound of rough in the middle of the 9th green, an island green.

With the surrounding water, mounding, and contours, a feature such as the one you describe would seem excessive.

It's a neat hole, one I would like to see fine tuned to mirror its earlier version.

[A.G._Crockett]

Paul,  
At what angle is the biarritz at Kinderlou?  I'm remembering it as running back to front on the green, rather than across, but won't swear to it and don't have pictures.

[Tim Bert]

The biggest hump I've ever seen in a green is at the Sheep Ranch E green.

Anyone that has ever seen this one know of a bigger hump in a green?

[RJ_Daley]

As for the pimple on the green, I've seen a few, but they were marginally pinable.  The poofs are plentiful on Maxwell greens, and tributes to Maxwell, done by folks like Axeland and Proctor.  The 6th at Crystal downs has two rolls, not pimples that might qualify for that concept, yet I think there are probably plenty of interesting pin placements in their proximity.

The concept of a Biarritz swale green oriented in the direct line of play into the green sounds more like a double plateau concept to me.  Of course, if you are strictly speaking of a par 3, then I can't think of one.  The second hole at Blue Mound CC is a double plateau green, yet one sees the swale somewhat in line with the LOP.  George, how about the double plateau green at Waunautonomy?  Isn't that a double plateau with the swale in the LOP which would be closer to a Biarritz green site if spun 90*?  

If you made a par 3 Biarritz and turned it 90*, would you keep the bunkers that usually are found on either side of the swale.  Anotherwords, would you have one dead center from the swale bunker in front of the green, and one behind the swale on the LOP?  (assuming you can figure out the drainage challenge) How long would the hole have to play to be an effective and interesting golf challenge?

[John Foley]

Adam,

2) IMHO there is no such thing as too wide. I see too narrow way too often and it's boring as hell.

3) #5 @ Arcadia Bluffs is a par 5 to a biaritz geeen. Depending upon where you hit your second or third it could be very oblique to the swale.

4) # 8 @ Hidden creek has a very big pimple in the middle of the green.

[RJ_Daley]

John, I used to call that Arcadia Bluffs green a Biarritz when I saw it as well.  But, the swale is so deep and different than a true Biarritz, that I've taken to calling it a double plateau.  It really is unique and hard to categorize.

[A_Clay_Man]

The most extreme example of
 buried elephants I can recall are
 at The Preserve.
They weren't the only bold
 features Fazio built on that course, either.

I've seen the sideways Biarritz shape to a green,
 however the hole plays nothing like a biarritz so,
 ergo, no biarritz.
Didn't Shivas conceive of this one, too?

Desert Forest has just one very big bunker,
 and on a relative basis, I bet it's more cost
 effective than flowers or shrubbery plantings.

Here's one;
Who has benefitted the most
from their participation on the web site?

[RJ_Daley]

Here's one;
Who has benefitted the most
from their participation on the web site?

I'll take a stab at that stupid question, Adam.

The Golf Club Atlas darling archies association...

[Adam_F_Collins]

Thank you all very much. Here's another:

• How small can a bunker be and still work well from all angles (playing, maintaining, etc)?