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Mike_Cirba

Name the Architect
« on: August 24, 2005, 11:15:12 AM »
Before there was the term "minimalism", which architect had the following to say as he was launching his career;

"Golf is the only game that is not played on a specially prepared court or field, but on natural terrain, and this is undoubtedly the reason for its incomparable fascination.  Moreover, since there are no strict measurements that a golf course must abide by, each course is free to develop its own form, its own flavor, its own personality."

"For me, golf beauty means two things; the natural suitableness of the land for golf, and the skillfulness with which its topographical features were utilized to create holes that arrest you and intrigue you and never become stale no matter how many times you play them."  

"All first-class golf courses and all outstanding golf holes have one thing in common to the golfer’s eye; they look absolutely natural, as if the terrain had always been that way, waiting to be discovered for golf."

"That is seldom the case, to be sure.  Even in Britain and Ireland where some seaside stretches need only minor alteration to emerge as eighteen holes of good golf, some work must always be done.  This is where the golf architect comes in.   As he visualizes and stakes out his holes, his job is to make the best possible use of the natural features of the terrain, then to use his modern earthmoving equipment with taste and imagination in shaping the supporting features that his holes need.  Regardless of the type of land he is given to work with and the amount of “artificial” construction he may feel impelled to undertake, if he is a truly competent architect every hole, every feature of every hole, will have a natural look to it.  The stream in the tee-shot landing area will cut across the fairway at the proper point; the key bunker in the green area will be set at just the right angle to the entrance; the size and shape of the green will suit the approach shot perfectly."

A_Clay_Man

Re:Name the Architect
« Reply #1 on: August 24, 2005, 11:37:56 AM »
Is it Doak?

It sounded just like Max Behr, only comprehendable. But the interesting thing about reading those quotes were the rush of memories of holes and courses that fit the bill.

Mike- I think you have touched on a basis for a GCA manifesto. Hopefully opening the eyes of GCA students and critics.

P.s. I realize that is asking alot.

Mike_Cirba

Re:Name the Architect
« Reply #2 on: August 24, 2005, 11:39:52 AM »
Adam,

No, not Doak.  If I get a little time later today I'll add some additional thoughts from this architect.

RJ_Daley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Name the Architect
« Reply #3 on: August 24, 2005, 11:45:49 AM »
It has got to be a trick question... or why would you ask? ;)

OK, I'll guess either Mike Hurdzan or Robert Trent Jones Jr, "Golf by Design". ::) ;D
No actual golf rounds were ruined or delayed, nor golf rules broken, in the taking of any photographs that may be displayed by the above forum user.

Mike_Cirba

Re:Name the Architect
« Reply #4 on: August 24, 2005, 11:52:04 AM »
Some additional words from the architect;

"Golf architects too often accept an inferior piece of property just to get the job.  The result, almost inevitably, is an inferior golf course."

"Gently rolling land is best for golf.  That's why most desert courses are boring-the fairways have no contours..  They don't have to be that way.  You can bulldoze flat land into undulating land and bulldozing isn't that expensive considering the results."

"The terrain itself should create or suggest most of the hazards.  I don't favor inserting too many bunkers.  Augusta National, I believe, has only 32 or so bunkers.  This makes it pleasantly playable for the members.  For the Masters, merely by moving the tee markers back and changing the pin positions so that the bunkers come sharpy into play, the course becomes wholly different - a test for experts."

"Fairways must swing.  This then makes it imperative for a golfer to "work the ball".  I hate to play a hole where you stand up and hit two straight shots to the green.  On the other hand, I admire holes where on the tee-shot the golfer faces a definite feature he must carry or avoid - water or a mound, or a tongueof rough, or a depression, or trees - in order to gain the preferred position for his second shot."

"Each green should have a variety of rolls and breaks so that the members, however familiar they may be with the greens, cannot play a putt from memory but must re-read the green each time.  THis keeps a golf course fresh."


Lou_Duran

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Name the Architect
« Reply #5 on: August 24, 2005, 11:53:15 AM »
JN

A_Clay_Man

Re:Name the Architect
« Reply #6 on: August 24, 2005, 11:55:30 AM »
Could it be..? Da Faz

Mike_Cirba

Re:Name the Architect
« Reply #7 on: August 24, 2005, 11:59:14 AM »
RJ;

Trick question?  Moi??  ;D

I also like the architect's definition of strategic design;

"Course of strategic design encourage initiative and reward a player in proportion to the difficulty of the shot he chooses to play and successfully executes."

Mike_Cirba

Re:Name the Architect
« Reply #8 on: August 24, 2005, 12:02:59 PM »
Adam,

Not Da Faz.  

Lou,

Not Jim Nagle, either.

Keep guessing while I grab some lunch.  ;)

RJ_Daley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Name the Architect
« Reply #9 on: August 24, 2005, 12:04:47 PM »
Lou, JN?  If you are correct, I'll change my guess to a "ghost writer" for the archie.
No actual golf rounds were ruined or delayed, nor golf rules broken, in the taking of any photographs that may be displayed by the above forum user.

Mike_Cirba

Re:Name the Architect
« Reply #10 on: August 24, 2005, 12:09:32 PM »
Lou is correct.

The quotes all come directly from "The Greatest Game of All", by Jack Nicklaus, 1969, in a chapter titled "Some Thoughts on Golf Course Architecture".

Was Jack really the father of minimalism?  My lord, he preached the doctrine.


RJ_Daley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Name the Architect
« Reply #11 on: August 24, 2005, 12:16:23 PM »
Was he working with Des at that time?
No actual golf rounds were ruined or delayed, nor golf rules broken, in the taking of any photographs that may be displayed by the above forum user.

A_Clay_Man

Re:Name the Architect
« Reply #12 on: August 24, 2005, 12:17:27 PM »
Maybe it was influenced by Pete? 69' is devine. When did he work with Desmond?

RJ_Daley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Name the Architect
« Reply #13 on: August 24, 2005, 12:21:48 PM »
Adam, at a place named Muirfield Village... ;D

Also, he had a collaboration with RB Harris at the Brute in Lake Geneva... ::)
« Last Edit: August 24, 2005, 12:22:35 PM by RJ_Daley »
No actual golf rounds were ruined or delayed, nor golf rules broken, in the taking of any photographs that may be displayed by the above forum user.

Mike_Cirba

Re:Name the Architect
« Reply #14 on: August 24, 2005, 03:25:31 PM »
I should probably mention that the book was co-authored by Herbert Warren Wind.  

Mike_Cirba

Re:Name the Architect
« Reply #15 on: August 24, 2005, 09:01:15 PM »
Bumping this one up because I think it's an interesting read from the most prolific architect of our time...

Interestingly, I think the courses he's built recently (35 years later) are closer to his espoused philosophy than much of what came before.

Lou_Duran

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Name the Architect
« Reply #16 on: August 24, 2005, 11:02:55 PM »
Mike,

How many architects who also wrote consistently practiced what they preached?   Certainly not MacKenzie.

I think that there is a tendency to think and write in the ideal, whereas the actual production process is much messier and difficult.  I see this as a real problem with academia and creativie/artsy types.  

Another critical tendency is that we have blind spots for what and how we do things.  Look at Hogan's swing and read his modern fundamentals book.  Did his wing reflect or incorporate the movements he described in the book?

Could Nicklaus and Fazio have a view of their work that they think is consitent with what they write or expound on, but that is not so in reality?  Maybe Nicklaus is getting better through time at aligning his mind's eye with reality.    

Patrick_Mucci

Re:Name the Architect
« Reply #17 on: August 25, 2005, 06:50:42 AM »
Mike Cirba,

This goes to prove that what an architect puts in print and what he does are two different things.

T_MacWood

Re:Name the Architect
« Reply #18 on: August 25, 2005, 06:57:36 AM »
Herbert Warren Wind?

1969 would be pre-Muirhead. This would have been the time he collaborated with Dye. I don't believe Jack ever worked with Harris.

Lou
IMO MacKenzie for the most part practiced what he preached. Where do you see Dr. MacK diverting?

Kelly Blake Moran

Re:Name the Architect
« Reply #19 on: August 25, 2005, 07:52:46 AM »
I believe Doak identified some inconsistencies in his book on MacK, I just can't put my hands on the book right now.

BCrosby

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Name the Architect
« Reply #20 on: August 25, 2005, 10:32:45 AM »
There were several inconsistencies. One I recall was MacK's breach of his admonition against blind shots (See Golf Architecture, 1920). He built several holes with blind shots.

I don't think any of that is a big deal. Like most architects, Mack wrote his "principles" as much for marketing purposes as for analytic reasons. Give 'em some leeway. The proof is in the pudding.

The only example I know where an architect is perfectly consistent with his written goals is Fazio. His marketing book syncs up almost exactly with the stuff he builds. That's not intended as a compliment.

Bob  


RJ_Daley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Name the Architect
« Reply #21 on: August 25, 2005, 10:52:13 AM »
Tom MacW., do you know if Jack "consulted" with RB Harris at the Brute, in Lake Geneva.  I'm not sure, but I thought I read that somewhere...  It has been reworked extensively since those old "Playboy Club" days...  I played it intoxicated in about mid 70s, and way before I knew who RB Harris was. So I'm not much of a witness on that score...
No actual golf rounds were ruined or delayed, nor golf rules broken, in the taking of any photographs that may be displayed by the above forum user.

George_Bahto

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Name the Architect
« Reply #22 on: August 25, 2005, 11:09:38 AM »
Hey Mike, you said:

"For the Masters, merely by moving the tee markers back and changing the pin positions so that the bunkers come sharpy into play, the course becomes wholly different - a test for experts."

sounds like Matt Ward to me    :P
If a player insists on playing his maximum power on his tee-shot, it is not the architect's intention to allow him an overly wide target to hit to but rather should be allowed this privilege of maximum power except under conditions of exceptional skill.
   Wethered & Simpson

Lou_Duran

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Name the Architect
« Reply #23 on: August 25, 2005, 04:27:12 PM »
TMac,

I don't have MacKenzie's principles handy, but on walkability and proximity of tees to greens Pasatiempo, Meadow, and perhaps CPC are not good examples.  Ditto for his concern about lost balls, or that courses be ideally suited for both the accomplished player and the duffer.  Again, focusing on Pasatiempo, under firm conditions many good players can't break 90, and there are some forced carries.  None of these bother me or lower his genious in my eyes, but are just examples that the stroke of the pen can and does vary with what gets done on the ground.   BTW, do you think that the Doctor generally gave you a great mix of short, medium and long holes?  I am not acquainted with too many long par 4s, and some of his three-shotters are not very strong.  What do you think?

SL_Solow

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Name the Architect
« Reply #24 on: August 25, 2005, 04:49:29 PM »
I am sure that Nicklaus was given credit for working with RB Harris at the old Playboy Club in Lake Geneva.  My recollection is that he worked on the 2nd course which was called the Briar Patch as opposed to the Brute.

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