Lakota Canyon: End of the Season Report

[cary lichtenstein]

I promised I would post my opinion of Lakota after multiple plays this summer. Our intent was to play Lakota once a week for 7 weeks, but we extended our stay to 10 weeks and probably played Lakota 20/25 times, so now I know every inch of the place.

After the criticism from my last post about Lakota, I tried to put on a more critical pair of eyes as I played so I looked for faults on purpose.

The bottom line is that I  love the topograpy, it is among the best of all time, and I have an amazing amount of respect for  the design work by Jim Engh, and for me, it is in my top 17 courses world wide.

I still get excited when I tee it up on #1, and regardless of the length of the round, I am able to keep my focus for all 18 holes.

Bette and I have played with lots of people they have paired us with, and the higher handicaps, the sprayers, this is not a course for them, it can eat their lunch. At most courses, the sprayer can hit it in the trees, pitch out to 125 yards and make bogey. Here they retee and retee.The proshop has a good deal on a 15 or 18 ball pack of Titilests.

While I have stated before that Lakota is not for everybody, it should be played at least once by everybody. Ditto with Redlands Mesa, also by Jim Engh, that is about 70 minutes west of Lakota. Actually, my wife prefers Reldands to Lakota. Redlands is another outstanding piece of land, others would call it a difficult site. Neither course just never lets up in a positive, challenging, beautiful way.

Will the Donald Ross, Doak, C and C fans love Lakota and Redlands Mesa?? I think not, they enjoy more subtle architecture, but I think just for purposes for seeing what is out there, maybe a goodly number will enjoy it and who knows, maybe some will even embrace it .

[Brian Cenci]

Cary - played both Lakota and Redlands on my recent trip.  I did like Redlands a little better too.  Lakota is the perfect setting to represent Colorado golf I felt.  The views are unbelievable.  While I'm not the biggest Engh fan, you can't deny that both courses are fun to play and all in all good courses.  Engh loves the elevated tees on that Lakota, which you know what you're in Colorado (land of the mountains) so why not make them almost all elevated!  

You are right about the balls deal!  Pro-V1 and V1x boxes for $39 in the pro shop, I bought two just for the road there.

[Steve_ Shaffer]

Cary

We enjoyed our round with you and Betty at Lakota. It was quite a visual contrast to the more player friendly Pradera. The semi punchbowl greens, the snake bunkers and the interesting par 5s seem to be Engh's trademarks/style. One learns to play the greens there in a hurry and a few bounces helped contribute to my 3 birdie round. Lakota is one of the best mountain courses that I've played. I think it is ahead of Wolf Creek and equal to PaaKo & Black Mesa & Red Sky Norman. Others may have different opinions. I'd like to have the experience of playing there (or Black Mesa or PaaKo) 20 times in a 2-3 month period. I couldn't afford the Red Sky resort fee too often.

Steve

P.S. Are the escalators installed yet on 3 tee and the other elevated tee where you took me to?

[John_Conley]

The bottom line is that I  love the topograpy, it is among the best of all time, and I have an amazing amount of respect for  the design work by Jim Engh, and for me, it is in my top 17 courses world wide.
...
Bette and I have played with lots of people they have paired us with, and the higher handicaps, the sprayers, this is not a course for them, it can eat their lunch. At most courses, the sprayer can hit it in the trees, pitch out to 125 yards and make bogey. Here they retee and retee.The proshop has a good deal on a 15 or 18 ball pack of Titilests.

Quasss:

I respect your right to your own opinion.  However, these two comments are telling.  It is in YOUR Top 17, yet it requires proficiency.  Most other "rankings" make some consideration that a course be "playable" for all levels.  

Would my 70-year-old mom like Lakota?  Because I can assure you she'd enjoy a day at Teeth of the Dog, Prairie Dunes, Banff, or Notts.

I'm glad you enjoy Lakota and look forward to seeing it some day.  

[Craig Sweet]

John, no offense, but I could care less whether your "70 year old mom" would like the same course I play and like. But then,that is why I hate Top 100 course rankings...I don't need someone to tell me what I should and shouldn't like.

[John_Conley]

Craig:

Agreed.  Which is why we always have to "consider the source" when anyone is listing anything.  It wasn't that long ago that Sand Hills was 40th in the US.

[Mike_Sweeney]

Cary,

In your travels, I would be interested in your views of the mountainous Morgan Hill by Kelly Moran in PA. Kelly is a friend, thus this is said with bias, but I think he did an amazing job on a very difficult site. Great greens, heroic shots..... but is is hard for me to imagine a frequent diet of Morgan/Lakota.

[Steve_ Shaffer]

Mike

I might be one of the few who have played both Morgan Hill and Lakota Canyon. MH is a much more difficult site than LC. I think LC is much more in front of the golfer- no significant blind shots. I'm not a rater but I liked LC more than MH using the Pat Mucci test- would I want to go to the 1st tee after playing 18?

MH to me is a course that needs multiple plays to feel comfortable on.

Steve

[Matt_Ward]

Steve:

Can you tell me in great detail how Lakota is equal to the likes of Black Mesa and Norman's Red Sky Ranch?

Steve -- the two courses I mentioned are very strong (in terms of land, routing and overall shot values ) -- I like Lakota a bunch but if you think it's at that high a level I think you are being overly generous. Please -- as I asked at the outset -- go into details about the core ingredients -- land, routing and shot values of the courses in question.

I'll be happy to respond based on the info you provide. Thanks.

P.S. Wolf Creek is the modern golf design equivalent of Irish and Scottish quirk type golf. It's not a daily dosage type course but plenty of unique and fun thrill rides for the time there.

Cary:

Why the preference of your wife for Redlands Mesa over Lakota Canyon?

Gents:

Mike and Bill raise a good issue -- the success at Morgan Hill by Kelly Blake Moran is vastly underrated and clearly a candidate for Best New awards for '05. A solid layout on a very difficult piece of land.

[cary lichtenstein]

Matt:

I think part of Bette's prefence for Redlands Mesa is due to the limitations she has with her knee injury. The entry into the sandtaps are less steep, the bottoms of the traps are wider so the stances are more level, the entry and exits from the green complexes are also more level.

I also think that she hadn't seen Redlands in a year and forgot how good it was, and we had some folks with us from FLorida who went ape over how good Redlands was. So all in all, that influenced her.

[Jim Nugent]

The bottom line is that I  love the topograpy, it is among the best of all time, and I have an amazing amount of respect for  the design work by Jim Engh, and for me, it is in my top 17 courses world wide.

Cary, the course has dropped in your ratings!  A month or so ago wasn´t it top 10?  Now only 17?  

Kidding aside, after seeing your strong endorsement, I would love to play there some day.  

[Ben Cowan-Dewar]

P.S. Wolf Creek is the modern golf design equivalent of Irish and Scottish quirk type golf. It's not a daily dosage type course but plenty of unique and fun thrill rides for the time there.

Matt,
Which Irish and Scottish quirky courses would you equate to Wolf Creek?

[cary lichtenstein]

Jim:

Actually, the course has not dropped in my ratings. Someone asked me for my top 10 and I posted 17 courses because of my intelliectual inaility to reduce it to 10, kinda like my spelling, so I listed my top 17

[Steve_ Shaffer]

Matt

Maybe I'm being overly generous re LC;however, I did have 3 birdies(2,10&11) there so I like the course. I guess the quirkiness of the greens is a big factor. I refer to those as semi-punchbowl types. I'm not a single digit handicapper or a course rater but LC was more enjoyable to play than the more difficult but very good Red Sky Norman. Black Mesa was played in bad weather. It was hard to have fun that day but the course certainly is outstanding and probably deserves a higher rating than LC as does PaaKo. Someday I'll return to Black Mesa in peak season. Details? Lakota didn't have a yardage book so I can't remember hole by hole other than from the scorecard. My wife, a mid 20s handicapper, liked LC very much. She didn't care for Red Sky Norman. Too difficult for her. The greens and green surrounds  there were excellent.

Bill

I played Morgan Hill last summer and just didn't feel comfortable there. Maybe I need more visits. Maybe it's just me.

[Matt_Ward]

Ben --

I'll try to answer -- start with Pennard in Wales. The layout there has its share of quirky holes -- how bout the par-5 4th hole and the par-5 17th with its narrow landing area -- even still I liked them both but they were indeed quirky to me. In Ireland I would say a course like Lahinch has its share with the likes of the 4th (Klondyke) and 5th (Dell). I mean what is the point of these two holes? Can solid shotmaking really be the focal point -- especially when you have such dynamic holes that follow with the 6th and 7th -- and even the new par-3 8th. You can also likely include Prestwick too. Nonetheless, I can see why people would enjoy these courses and I did too.

Wolf Creek gets panned by a number of classical "my nose is up in the air" types because it doesn't confirm to their very narrow sense of what golf design should be about. The design by Dennis Rider is clearly edgy and a number of holes favor a match play style round because stroke play would be a more taxing issue at best. It's meant to be fun -- to provide a different alternative to the meaning of design.

Wolf Creek is what Shadow Creek wants to be. The site is clearly beyond the planet earth and when the wind whips through the site you have to check your ego at the door and follow the maxim of Clint Eastwood, "A man's got to know his limitations." It's not a course that relies on consistently rewarding good and penalizing poor shots but it's a modern style quirky courser that does provide its fair share of memorable moments.

[Ben Cowan-Dewar]

Matt,
What is the point of the Klondyke and the Dell holes? They fit into the routing well and are two exceptional holes in my mind.

I believe that quality shotmaking is rewarded at Dell more that many par threes. You have to hit a club a certain distance, more than anything that seems to me the definition of shotmaking.

I do not understand the relationship between moon golf like Wolf Creek and Lahinch. One is easily walkable, in fact carts can't be found, the other is almost cart mandatory.

Also, from your alluding to Lahinch's blind holes, I assume that is to some extent how you define quirky. However, these holes are the epitome of natural. Do you think Wolf Creek is equally natural, or is quirk than derived from "something different"?

PGA West is unnatural and a great matchplay course, that requires you to check your ego. Do you find it quirky?

I was unclear on your original point and seen Lahinch compared to Wolf Creek leaves me at even more of a loss.

[Matt_Ward]

Ben:

Maybe you can explain to me the "pot luck" characteristics of the Dell Hole? Ditto Klondyke? You also have the inane aspect in having high grass grown immediately off the putting surface at the Dell and extended all the way up the sides of the hills in order to prevent anyone from bounding off the sides and making their way to the green. Wonderful Calvinistic style of preparation.

Ben -- I call that for what it is -- gotcha type golf. I define quirk as when design moves beyond any clear identification of reward & penalty for shots played. In short -- the introduction of luck becomes the dominant aspect. I see the 4th and 5th at Lahinch in that mode. It has nothing to do with the blindness that those two holes present.

Let me explain the nature of Wolf Creek because I have played the course no less than a half a dozen times. The site is completely unique -- truly an outer space scene if there ever was one. You don't visualize golf being in such a location and thanks to the imagination and vision of Dennis Rider you get a finished product that clearly flaunts what it has -- even if that means providing for holes with limited means of success. On the flip side Wolf Creek excels in having holes that test the player's imagination -- the starting hole being one of them - ditto the qualities of the "how much guts do you have" with the 2nd.

Clearly, the classical school design advocates -- you may be one of them -- likely see Wolf Creek repulsive simply because it defies predictable set rules of design. Not every hole works (the 10th and 11th come quickly to mind) but there are a good number of others that do -- the stretch of holes from #12 through #14 is well done IMHO. If you are judhing the merits of a course based on the necessity in taking a cart then so be it. Candidly, the cart rides aren't excessive when compared to a greater number of courses in the immediate Nevada / Utah area that I have played. Frankly, what does walking have to do with the quality of the course / holes? Clearly, some people believe that courses can only be great when walking is part and parcel of the experience. I can understand that argument but I'm not buying it 100%.

Regarding PGA West -- I think the original layout at TPC / Stadium in Ponte Vedra is the better of the two. Seeing the same movie twice -- albeit in a different location -- doesn't make for a better product by the architect in my mind.

My linkage of Lahinch / Wolf Creek deals with the fact that on certain few holes there are clear instances where the luck factor trumps the design merits. That was my original point in mentioning how a modern day design course like Wolf Creek uses its style of "quirk" in its presentation on a number of holes. I never said Lahinch is less of a golf course than Wolf Creek -- quite the contrary -- I enjoyed Lahinch immensely and would easily place it among the more noted golf courses I have played.