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Don_Mahaffey

Conditioning question - Weeds
« on: August 23, 2005, 02:55:53 PM »
Many here praise golf courses that appear to blend in with the natural surrounds. As we all know, seldom if ever do we find natural areas that are a pure stand of one plant or another. Yet as a golf course superintendent we are taught to cultivate mono stands of grasses.

How tolerant are you of a golf course that has a few dandelions in the rough or bunker surrounds? Or a patch of clover in the rough here and there. Do you view a golf course as poorly conditioned if you see a few weeds? I'm not talking crab grass on greens or thistles in fwys, but if a few weeds are dotted around the course, primarily in the roughs and along the edges where the course transitions into native areas, is that a bad thing?

My feeling is a lot of $$$ is spent on preemergents and labor controlling weeds that have little to no effect on the game of golf.

Thoughts?
« Last Edit: August 23, 2005, 02:57:36 PM by Don_Mahaffey »

Brian_Gracely

Re:Conditioning question - Weeds
« Reply #1 on: August 23, 2005, 02:58:39 PM »
Weeds?!?!  Hell, I don't even care if there are bare spots on the fairways...

More courses ought to look and play like Southern Pines GC....$20 on a Saturday and some bare patches in the fairway.

Steve Curry

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Conditioning question - Weeds
« Reply #2 on: August 23, 2005, 05:52:59 PM »
Don,

How are ya??

I hadn't sprayed for weeds in three years, after much grief from area supers and assistants I went after them this season.  I recieved my first complaint about weeds in the last 8 years when, and only when the clover turned yellow from the herbicide???
 ;)

steve

Mark_Guiniven

Re:Conditioning question - Weeds
« Reply #3 on: August 23, 2005, 05:59:16 PM »

Mackenzie SoSA page 181 "It is not even necessary...", page 186 "Certain weeds and mosses...".

PThomas

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Conditioning question - Weeds
« Reply #4 on: August 23, 2005, 06:06:31 PM »
it's frightening to me that anyone would complain about weeds in the rough...it's ROUGH, it shouldn't be uniform by definition!!!!!!!!!!
199 played, only Augusta National left to play!

Dan Kelly

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Conditioning question - Weeds
« Reply #5 on: August 23, 2005, 06:30:42 PM »
it's frightening to me that anyone would complain about weeds in the rough...it's ROUGH, it shouldn't be uniform by definition!!!!!!!!!!

What's a weed?

A plant where you don't want it.

I want it in the rough.
"There's no money in doing less." -- Joe Hancock, 11/25/2010
"Rankings are silly and subjective..." -- Tom Doak, 3/12/2016

Joe Hancock

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Conditioning question - Weeds
« Reply #6 on: August 23, 2005, 06:49:43 PM »
Don,

You know me.... ;D

I have weeds, and plenty of them. Today I was looking around and noticed some crabgrass giving my bunkers a little "rough around the edge" treatment. I actually wondered this same thing: do people really care if theres a few weeds in non-critical areas?

Joe
" What the hell is the point of architecture and excellence in design if a "clever" set up trumps it all?" Peter Pallotta, June 21, 2016

"People aren't picking a side of the fairway off a tee because of a randomly internally contoured green ."  jeffwarne, February 24, 2017

Jeff_Mingay

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Conditioning question - Weeds
« Reply #7 on: August 23, 2005, 07:31:43 PM »
Frankly, golfers, particularly members at private clubs who rarely "get out" and complain about small blemishes like a patch of clover in the fairway or a weed in the rough, need more to think about.  

In my eyes, a perfectly manicured golf course is ugly. In fact, it's the blemishes that add elements of uniqueness, character and charm to many of the world's greatest courses; blemishes including a few so-called "weeds", here and there.

According to the Oxford American Dictionary I happen to have in front of me, a blemish is "a flaw or defect that spoils the perfection of something". A perfect golf course sucks. I've seen "blemishes" at Pine Valley, St. Andrews, Shinnecock Hills, Sand Hills, and my home course, Essex. They're all fine, fine courses still. Without the blemishes, I'm not so sure I'd think the same.
« Last Edit: August 23, 2005, 07:36:42 PM by Jeff_Mingay »
jeffmingay.com

Tim Taylor

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Conditioning question - Weeds
« Reply #8 on: August 23, 2005, 08:05:20 PM »
Simple answer: NO. I'd gladly give up a little in "conditioning" if meant less chemicals and water on the course.

TimT

Lou_Duran

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Conditioning question - Weeds
« Reply #9 on: August 23, 2005, 08:29:37 PM »
Mr. Mahaffey,

Certainly you jest.  Just keep the weeds off the greens.  Lighten up on water, herbicides, and fertilizers and we are all the better for it.  I think that even the folks at Pronghorn would tolerate a more natural look if they were "educated" by someone like you.

I hate thick, lush rough, particularly when it's bermuda.  When weeds can compete successfully with the desired grasses in the rough, it is more to my liking.  I wish more superintendents could control the amount of water and fertilizer which migrates into the first few yards of rough.

Don't you think that the trend in gca and maintenance is for a more natural look?  From my travels, it seems like the Augusta National Syndrome may becoming a thing of the past.

Joe Hancock

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Conditioning question - Weeds
« Reply #10 on: August 23, 2005, 08:43:07 PM »
Lou,

Finding private clubs or CCFAD's around Michigan that aren't over watered and over-pesticided(?) is not the easiest thing to do. If there's a trend near you opposite of that, count yourself lucky.

Joe
" What the hell is the point of architecture and excellence in design if a "clever" set up trumps it all?" Peter Pallotta, June 21, 2016

"People aren't picking a side of the fairway off a tee because of a randomly internally contoured green ."  jeffwarne, February 24, 2017

Joel_Stewart

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Conditioning question - Weeds
« Reply #11 on: August 23, 2005, 10:45:18 PM »
I have been talking about over conditioning for years.  I knocked down Cypress Point this year because the course is un-natural in its current pristine condition.  I've talked to the super at my club until I am blue in the face but he is afraid of losing his job if the course isn't perfect all of the time.

Its a fine line between a few weeds and bad conditioning.

PThomas

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Conditioning question - Weeds
« Reply #12 on: August 23, 2005, 11:00:07 PM »
Lou - I hope you are right about the Augusta National syndrome going away!  certainly courses like P Dunes, S Hills, etc move that way...

but what Joel said is true, that a lot of times the super must keep things pristine or they lose their jobs

I'll never understand how wall-to-wall green is more beautiful than something like Blackwolf run with its tall brown grasses, etc ???
199 played, only Augusta National left to play!

Jim Thompson

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Conditioning question - Weeds
« Reply #13 on: August 23, 2005, 11:01:36 PM »
For me there is a big difference between weeds and natural.  I don't know if its from the granddads farming or what, but when I see Evening Night Shade, Wild Mustard, Queens Anne's Lace, Bull Thistle, or mature plaintain in native areas it drives me nuts and I absolutely hate them on bunker faces!  I don't mind them out in wetlands or distant areas but when in a "prairie area" it looks awful.  I'm not a fan of monostand prairies either.  Our eight native areas have well over 50 species planted in each of them and some are "weeds".  None however are old farm weeds.  In the inner roughs I find sedges particularly annoying.  All this said, I would consider myself a member of the anti-green golf party and a naturalist fan.  Maybe its just in the genes?

Paul,

You've seen how we do it.  Help me describe it better.

Thanks!

JT
« Last Edit: August 23, 2005, 11:02:49 PM by Jim Thompson »
Jim Thompson

James Bennett

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Conditioning question - Weeds
« Reply #14 on: August 23, 2005, 11:53:37 PM »
The Fontainbleu thread has a picture of the 11th hole.  Abutting the bunkers are some lovely 'weeds' in flower, adding to the effect.

Bermuda rough with any degree of irrigation/nutrient is very difficult to manage.  We have summer drought, so the limited areas we have are ok.  However, dealing with the wrist-breaking paramatta grass near the fairway is another matter!  That is one 'weed' that I'd like to eradicate in SOME areas of the course.

Many of the members at my club  think we need to have a rough, to provide definition and to contain the errant shots from running further into a worse lie.  In Adelaide, the better courses have irrigation systems that extend into the rough, enabling a 'managed' stock of rough (some bermuda, some fescue, some other grasses).  Expensive to install/retrofit, but desired by many a member (the Augusta syndrome).  Perhaps as some of the newer courses become well known (Sandhills, the bandon complex, Friars Head, Barnbougle etc etc) then perhaps a few weeds will be tolerated/expected.
Bob; its impossible to explain some of the clutter that gets recalled from the attic between my ears. .  (SL Solow)

Don_Mahaffey

Re:Conditioning question - Weeds
« Reply #15 on: August 24, 2005, 12:36:19 AM »
I appreciate all the responses. I had a pretty good idea what the general feeling would be about weeds and their impact on our golf courses.

However, as I see it the naturalization of golf courses is not the trend. Oh yeah, we’ll grow some hairy turf around a few bunkers and maybe leave a few snags about and call it bird habitat. Maybe hydroseed a few out of play areas with some native seed and talk about creating habitat. All that is good, but it is my belief that the turf, and especially any short cut turf, is expected to be free of weeds at most high end courses; no matter the cost in dollars or any potential for chemical problems. Make no mistake, in the vast majority of cases, if your playing a golf course free of all weeds your playing a course that has an extensive chemical program in place. There are exceptions, but they are few and far between and very dependent on the local growing conditions. (sand helps a lot) And since the high end courses pay their supers well, we as a group try and create conditions that help us move upward in our careers.

I really found what Steve had to say interesting. I’m at a public, one owner, golf course and my owner doesn’t care if there are a few weeds about. In fact he encourages me to let the edges transition into the native. So, some brown, ratty turf along the perimeter of the property is just fine with him. My golfers have never said a word to me about weeds. If the fairways are green and dry, the tees level and the greens smooth with good pace then everyone is happy. It’s when other supers or their crew members come and play that I hear about the patches of clover in the rough, or the dandelions in the bunker faces, or the small patches of chickweed in the fairways. They can’t understand at all why we aren’t out spending thousands of dollars keeping the place free of weeds and yet we get thousands of comment cards returned to us annually and weeds has never even been mentioned once!

I wonder sometimes just who we are conditioning our golf courses for.

Marc Haring

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Conditioning question - Weeds
« Reply #16 on: August 24, 2005, 02:12:53 AM »
It really does depend on what sort of soil/environment you have. To me the target market you are in shouldn’t come into the equation. Top end establishments should be just as keen to promote a natural feel to a golf course as the lower end ones and that should mean a few weeds right up to the greens.

However, if you are on ex agricultural soil that has been overfed for so many years, coarse agricultural weeds can proliferate and would therefore need to be controlled to some extent with selectives. 6ft high docks, thistles and ragwort never looks too good. We carry out a little selective spot treatment to control this but long term I want to try and create a natural meadow look through annual cutting and collecting and NO feeding. 5 years on and we’re getting some wild orchids starting to come into the course which is great. Also remember, weeds or wild flowers as we like to call them, are great for insects and the follow on bird species that every one likes. It’s difficult to have one without the other.  

« Last Edit: August 24, 2005, 02:20:52 AM by Marc Haring »

Craig Sweet

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Conditioning question - Weeds
« Reply #17 on: August 24, 2005, 07:17:48 AM »
There was a time when we used 2-4-D on the weeds at my course. We "spot" spray for dandelions and clover primarily....use was limited to large patches of either weeds...knock down didn't happen over night, but the weeds were really zapped and dead in a week or so. Then our board of directors said they wanted us to stop using 2-4-D and switch to something "safer" and more environmentally sound.  We spent about $4000 a year spraying weeds with 2-4-D.

Now we use a combo of Confront and Roundup. We get a much faster knock down on the weeds, but it requires a second application to really zap them good. Our costs now are between $8000 and $9000....

The only time I hear complaints about weeds from the golfers is when the dandelion heads have gone to seed and there's a patch of "white heads' here and there.  Other wise, they're smart enough to know there will be some weeds when you have 145 acres of turf.
Project 2025....All bow down to our new authoritarian government.

Lou_Duran

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Conditioning question - Weeds
« Reply #18 on: August 24, 2005, 10:53:52 AM »
Don,

It seems to me that you have answered your own question.  Unless other superintendents and their crews make up your client base, you are doing things right (by design and or necessity, ie. tight budgets).

At a recent lunch with a well-known course owner, he commented that the superintendent is the most important member of his management group, and by a good margin.  I share the same perspective, though I've commented before that some superintendents seem to lack the necessary communication skills or desire to interact with the playing public.  I understand the sensitivities of the situation and the often tenuous nature of the position, but you guys are the subject experts and educating the other stakeholders in the game perhaps should be an important responsibility.

Some 10+ years ago I was in the restroom at a Toronto country club and a nice reading board above the urinals had a couple of articles on various issues dealing with course maintenance.  One dealt with trees and the importance of a program to promote better turf health and more variety of shots as the course originally allowed before it became overgrown.  The responsible superintendent had been briefing the club's members over a period of time and the tree plan undertaken by his staff seemed to have been widely accepted.  I know that the superintendents are overworked in many cases, but perhaps good communications can be looked at as preventive maintenance.  

 

PThomas

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Conditioning question - Weeds
« Reply #19 on: August 25, 2005, 09:34:45 PM »
Jim - no,  I can't describe Angel's Crossing better than you! I would be about a 100-handicap  :o horticulturist

all I know if that I enjoyed your golf course a lot!

as I said before, rough is rough, and why anybody really gives a S_ _ t what's in it and if it is green puzzles me a lot ???
199 played, only Augusta National left to play!

Joe Hancock

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Conditioning question - Weeds
« Reply #20 on: August 25, 2005, 09:40:18 PM »
as I said before, rough is rough, and why anybody really gives a S_ _ t what's in it and if it is green puzzles me a lot ???

Paul,

I was anxious to show you my course before we head to Kingsley next week....but I'm not sure you'll like my brown roughs! ;D

Joe
" What the hell is the point of architecture and excellence in design if a "clever" set up trumps it all?" Peter Pallotta, June 21, 2016

"People aren't picking a side of the fairway off a tee because of a randomly internally contoured green ."  jeffwarne, February 24, 2017

PThomas

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Conditioning question - Weeds
« Reply #21 on: August 25, 2005, 10:54:53 PM »
I will LOVE your brown grass Joe!  I can't wait to see Kingsley!!!!
199 played, only Augusta National left to play!

Caleb Anderson

Re:Conditioning question - Weeds
« Reply #22 on: August 27, 2005, 03:19:52 PM »
Lou-

I saw your response in which you mentioned Pronghorn and that we would tolerate a more natural look if "educated."  Our golf course Superintendent was awarded the nat'l. Enivornmental Leaders in Golf Award from the GCSAA/Golf Digest in 2004 for our daily maintenance practices.  Our super. has found that being environmentally conscious and having a course play in tournament quality condition on a daily basis are ideals that can co-exist.


Mr. Mahaffey,

Certainly you jest.  Just keep the weeds off the greens.  Lighten up on water, herbicides, and fertilizers and we are all the better for it.  I think that even the folks at Pronghorn would tolerate a more natural look if they were "educated" by someone like you.

I hate thick, lush rough, particularly when it's bermuda.  When weeds can compete successfully with the desired grasses in the rough, it is more to my liking.  I wish more superintendents could control the amount of water and fertilizer which migrates into the first few yards of rough.

Don't you think that the trend in gca and maintenance is for a more natural look?  From my travels, it seems like the Augusta National Syndrome may becoming a thing of the past.


Jerry Kluger

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Conditioning question - Weeds
« Reply #23 on: August 28, 2005, 09:47:24 AM »
I played Maidstone not too long ago and I was quite surprised with the weeds which are quite abundant arround the course.  I was told that the members think that weeks are cool and they feel it gives the course a more natural look.  Personally, dandelions and clover around the bunkers is not what I would consider cool.  I played Friar's Head shortly before Maidstone and it definitely had a natural feeling without the obvious presence of weeds and same for NGLA and Shinnecock.  It has always been my impression that once you allow weeds to exist they tend to take over and then you have some very significant problems.

Steve Okula

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Conditioning question - Weeds
« Reply #24 on: August 28, 2005, 10:16:04 AM »
I treat broadleaf weeds in the fairways, tees and roughs at the expressed, written, request of the members as represented by the greens committee. I have never had a comment about weeds from a visiting superintendent.

I manage the course for the desires of the membership, certainly not for my own tastes, and least of all to satisfy visitors playing gratis.
The small wheel turns by the fire and rod,
the big wheel turns by the grace of God.